General Vortex Incident Discussion

[boulderjohn]

On another note....
Anyone know of a good cavern course and instructor in Colorado?

It all depends on how far you are desiring to go with it. If you are looking to go beyond cavern and all the way to cave, then I suggest you look for some place and some instructor who will go the whole route with you. If you are looking for something like the PADI specialty, which is not intended for that purpose, then there are at least two I know who can help you.

The PADI specialty has roughly the same standards as other courses, and the instructor is required to have full cave certification. Unless you take it from one of the few instructors who is certified to teach the full PADI cave course (and yes, there is one now), it is not a first step to further certification. It is designed to make you a safe diver in a cavern, and, in the minds of the two instructors I know, it is more importantly designed to make sure you have a healthy respect for how much more training is required before being a safe diver in a cave. It is specifically intended to make sure things like this event do not occur.

As was stated earlier, the problem in Colorado is that there are no caverns. The two instructors I know have no thought that they can teach it locally but rather assume that it is something they would teach people who are on trips with them to places where caverns are available. For example, one of them certified two people in Florida this year when a planned dive on the Oriskany was blown out and they drove inland to Morrison Springs and Jackson Blue instead. Also, the shop sometimes leads trips to places like Tulum, in which case having an instructor along who can teach cavern would be a benefit.

 

[spector39]

I must have missed that. It does look like he's not terrible in the water during the video, so it looks like the class did help.

I've read a lot of criticism regarding that video but unless I'm not understanding, he was not associated with those two guys goofing around, correct? He was the one in the helmet who happened to come along as the other guys were shooting the video. That being said, what is the assessment of his skills in this video? He looks fairly competent to me, but then I've never done SM (only recently OW certified,) so I'm not sure what to look for and might be totally off base.

The whole discussion of his competence reminds me a little of how people say, "how could Oswald have shot the president being that he was a poor shot?" When the fact is, he was an average shot by marine standards, which means he was a damn good shot compared to most of the population. But I digress. In any event, the victim was clearly more educated and experienced than the average OW diver. I’m not saying he had the right to be there or trying to justify anything he did but I am curious why his skills are in question.

 

[Divedoggie]

There aren't any caverns in Colorado, at least not where training can occur. You'll have to come to Florida or go to Mexico for cavern training.

My next cavern course starts with academic & pool work 4 OCT in Montgomery, AL with dives in LA (Lower Alabama/North Florida) 9 & 10 OCT...
Come on down
Rick

Nothing as soon as Oct! Way too busy teaching here in CO! I definitetly would like to look at making some plans between Nov and mid-Jan. though. Lets see what we can work out. It may even be possible to bring a CO group down.

 

[Hetland]

I've read a lot of criticism regarding that video but unless I'm not understanding, he was not associated with those two guys goofing around, correct? He was the one in the helmet who happened to come along as the other guys were shooting the video. That being said, what is the assessment of his skills in this video? He looks fairly competent to me, but then I've never done SM (only recently OW certified,) so I'm not sure what to look for and might be totally off base.

I am curious why his skills are in question.

He can't stay off the ceiling. I can't claim to be a buoyancy champion, but honestly, the folks in my OW class had better buoyancy than the guy with the helmet.

 

[BDSC]

I'm a little curious about something else. I think I remember reading on one of these threads that Ben was posting/logging either on Facebook or in a dive log what his dive plan was in advance or what he was going to do. Am I right on this?

The reason I bring it up is, (if he did this) I didn't know if that was typical for him to do or was it just this particular dive. I'm not familiar with cave diving so I don't know if people write out their dive plan in advance just in case. I guess I'm use to people logging a dive and the events surrounding a dive after the fact.

 

[Hetland]

I'm a little curious about something else. I think I remember reading on one of these threads that Ben was posting/logging either on Facebook or in a dive log what his dive plan was in advance or what he was going to do. Am I right on this?

The reason I bring it up is, (if he did this) I didn't know if that was typical for him to do or was it just this particular dive. I'm not familiar with cave diving so I don't know if people write out their dive plan in advance just in case. I guess I'm use to people logging a dive and the events surrounding a dive after the fact.

Technical and cave divers are required by necessity to plan their dives in advance, because they need to have the proper tanks and gases available to them at certain points in their dives. If you are going into mandatory decompression, you will need to carry or stage an appropriate gas to breathe when that time comes. You have to calculate your deco obligations and gas usage in advance.

Publishing those plans is a different matter.

I tell my wife where we are planning to dive, and what our fall-back sites are likely to be in case we break down, and she has to send the Coast Guard after us.

 

[boulderjohn]

The reason I bring it up is, (if he did this) I didn't know if that was typical for him to do or was it just this particular dive. I'm not familiar with cave diving so I don't know if people write out their dive plan in advance just in case. I guess I'm use to people logging a dive and the events surrounding a dive after the fact.

Some people write their dinner plans in detail on FaceBook. I have a nephew who lets the world know when he is having a cup of coffee.

From everything we have heard so far, his FaceBook posting is not at all surprising. He appears to have been really proud of what he was doing, and his descriptions of his exploits probably resulted in tons of admiration from his friends, who didn't know any better. I am sure he was expecting further admiration from those posts.

 

[boulderjohn]

Based on the last posting, I want to dabble a little farther into psychology with another one of my really far flung analogies.

One of the biographies of Jim Morrison of the Doors tells the story of a time he joined a bunch of others at a dinner party. As they sat down to eat, the host proudly set a bottle of Courvoisier, his favorite Cognac, in front of him, clearly indicating it was for him to drink with the meal. Before the evening had come to a close, Morrison had passed out and wet his pants.

After coming to, in a moment of anger and rare lucidity, he lashed out at the host for giving him the bottle. He said that putting the bottle there meant, "You're the drinking man!" It implied that he had a reputation to uphold, a reputation that was held in high esteem by his many admirers. He felt he had to live up to that reputation and drink the whole bottle, something he would not have otherwise done.

I wonder if some people don't put themselves into that situation by building an image of being on the edge, an image that brings them esteem and admiration. They then have to keep pushing and pushing in order to maintain that image of being on the edge, of being a person worthy of that esteem. Once you have told the world that you are a daring cave diver who goes far beyond what others do, it is hard to suddenly decide to show restraint and common sense, even if in your heart you know better.

 

[BDSC]

I guess I'm really surprised he hasn't been found. No doubt some of the very best cave folks have been in there looking and unless I've missed something, there seems to be no concrete evidence he's in there. But I do think I remember reading where people have been lost in caves like that before and found months if not years later so I know he could still be there.

 

[vshearer]

... and sometimes it is just really simple.

NH teen who zapped nipples during shop class sues - Teenagers - Salon.com