General Vortex Incident Discussion

[cruiser]

Kevin...do YOU have extra information that has NOT been revealed? That is why I stated REVEALED thus far. As for dumping gear...I only meant if he had a brain injury he would have dumped gear. Trying to vanish is a different story.

If you have information stop hinting around and spit it out!

I wondered that too, alohagal. Do the authorities (and you divers who were there helping with the body recovery) have an idea or evidence that he did indeed take off somewhere? Are we focusing on "he's in the cave" while authorities are hot on the trail of a hoax for fraudulent purposes?

And all the stuff they found in Ben's truck, did this get returned to the family or are the police keeping it for awhile?

 

[DaleC]

I don’t believe that you can teach people to have sound judgment . You definitely won’t be able to regulate them into it.

I agree with what you were saying within the context of the post and understand your intention but you can teach someone to have sound (er) judgement. This usually requires them to want to learn though, and that can be a problem. Sometimes a close call or related death of someone close can act as a catalyst to behavior change. I'd say most of us who were wild in our youth and yet are still here (probably) underwent this process to some degree.

But what about twin cylinders in any configuration is recreational???? Right off the bat, you are more likely to hit a deco obligation with two cylinders so no matter how you slice it

What's so unique about recreational diving that there needs to be a limit on the equipment configuration one uses? It would seem that the lesser commitment required would allow for more equipment variation (looking at that statement from a different angle). And why do you assume recreational divers are so stupid that they can't be given big boy toys? There are some purely recreational divers who could think circles around the average cave diver and there are some new divers (regardles of the environment) who also have a mechanical aptitude far greater than many divers who have been at it for a long time.

And thinking one will hit deco simply because one has doubles is indicative of an equipment oriented decision making process. I wear a big ol knife when I vintage dive but I don't go around mindlessly stabbing things with it just because I have it. You don't hit deco because of your gear; you hit it because of your decisions. A person who is able to seperate the two will have no problem (in that regard) diving twins in any configuration or environment. Someones ability to do this is not a function of dive experience but just a basic ability to grasp concepts.

Blaming gear for human error is not an idea that should be perpetrated if one wants to eliminate human error.

Based on what you have said in earlier post, it would be perfectly OK to do your OW course in SM if you knew a single tank wasn't the way you were gonna end up diving...... REALLLY???? How at that point in the game do you even know where you are gonna be diving, or even if you are gonna survive the OW class, much less what configuration you are gonna be diving in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years.......

Interesting take on things. I wonder how DIR/GUE/UTD gets away with using the philosophy of "training with the end in mind"? Should new divers not adopt the DIR/GUE/UTD path, seeing as they can't possibly know where they are heading, down the road? Someone had better tell the agencies so they don't waste time developing those entry level courses.

You brought up task loading....so lets think about that for a brand new certified OW diver, you remember don't you, buoyancy all over the place........oh **** there is water in my mask can I clear it without drowning.......hey where did my buddy go........breathe in, breathe out.....hey how long have I been here........how deep am I........hey fishy fishy....Oh **** SHARK ......WTF am I doing here???? and you think its OK to put this guy in a SM rig????? Sorry I don't agree with you there.

Didn't those same divers somehow learn to dive with a single tank? Let's look at a few of the glossed over task loading issues there:

1.) No redundancy, so added task loading of requiring close contact with buddy. Buddy skills are good true, but the SM diver doesn't "die" if they go OOA in one tank.
2.) Both regs originating from back so a loss requires the performance of a blind manouver (reg sweep) that the diver "hopes", during a stressful situation, will resolve the issue. SM divers don't have this issue.
3.) No view of the valve assembly. Resolution of a mechanical problem requires another person or the complex skill of doff and don. SM divers don't have this issue.
4.) Added entanglement hazard resolution of BM tank (see 3. for resolution). SM divers don't have this issue.
5.) Difficulty manipulating valve. Some divers have died simply because they could not turn their own gas on. SM divers don't have this issue.
6.) Difficulty finding/accessing whips when they become lost/trapped behind rig. SM divers don't have this issue.

I don't know about teaching OW in SM but it's not as crazy as it sounds when you consider what happens now. In OW I was taught to become heavily buddy dependant and to "hope for the best" in a lot of cases (we didn't even practice doff and don at depth because it was too complex a skill to teach a class in cold, low vis conditions). I didn't learn anything about gas management other than get back to the surface with 500psi (how I was supposed to do this I don't know), and was very uncomfortable doing reg switches (which is an often unmentioned stressor when someone is faced with an OOA diver). Perhaps the increased trim issues of SM might be countered balanced by having OW divers who could actually intelligently manipulate their variables?

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

For what it is worth, I have started checking into diving SM in OW. I can't lift much weight and as I get older it is becoming more difficult. I often dive from a boat on a very still lake. I enter the water via a ladder with a big bottom platform. Having the boat mate hand me a tank while standing on the platform would make things easier for me because of an old injury.

It shouldn't really matter if my tank is on my back or on my side It matters the decisions I make when I am under water and where I go. The lake I dive in has depths of over 300 feet that I can easily reach. I plan my dives according to my abilities, my training and the limits of my gear. I always have enough gas to get to the bottom at 300', never enough to come home. It is my responsibility to stay within limits that are safe for me--the location of my tank doesn't change that responsibility and the location of my tank should not impact my ability to think and make good decision---unless you have a big plate in your head and it causes some sort of magnetic reaction altering your brain waves, but I digress.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

Oh and when the government creates high paying jobs for people to sit next to the exit of the cave systems, I want a location with a nice heated shack. I would like to be able to have it open air or pull down the screens to keep the bugs off of me and I will need to also be able to air condition and heat the area. I don't want divers in my space while they fill out the reports that I need to turn into the government. Seating area outside of my office will be fine as long as it doesn't block my scenic view of the area.

I will hold their car keys until they give the their report. I will also have my assistant put spiked tire boots on their cars which they will also have to pay a fee to have removed only after I approved their written report.

Of course we will have a staff of video divers to accompany you. You will be responsible for paying for their gas. The rate for having said diver go along with you is $300 per hour in addition to gas costs. I know this seems high, but we have to have a number of folks available for when there is a rush. Of course those same folks need to still be paid according to labor laws even when they are not in the water. And the price is of course suitable to have divers that are able to video you while not silting out the place or getting in your way.

Upon exit from the dive, after you have completed your report to my satisfaction, a team of dive experts will go over your dive with you to determine if you are suitable to continue such dives. If you are not suitable, your cards will be cut up in front of you. Also any gear that you have will be destroyed in front of you as you have no business owning gear that is above your skill level. The decisions of the monitoring staff will be final and there will be no recourse. You will also be charged a fee for gear disposal if we have to destroy your gear for your own safety.

 

[LiteHedded]

I wonder if he wore that helmet in his ow class.

And Rob, you don't know any DIR smokers

 

[Divedoggie]

Do people really think Ben would pull such a stunt and be yucking it up in Mexico? What would be the motivation to put his immediate family, MOM, DAD and surviving brother through that?

I am wondering what would be the positive indicators...inside the cave, that are supposedly lacking, to show he actually died in the cave?

Being in the Psych business...there is nothing in his background revealed thus far, to conclude he pulled a hoax. I find the brain injury theory more plausible...but, also highly unlikely. He would have dumped equipment upon surfacing.

I just find it difficult to believe he pulled a fast one here.

We will probably never know about specific debt, relationship issues, or events that could have directly motivated a disappearing act. But there is evidence of some interesting psychological traits that make it a possibility.

There is a huge discrepancy between how he presented himself to friends and family vs how he conducted himself in his diving. He was deluded in thinking his abilities were far superior then they actually were.

Everything I have read indicates someone who was very aware of how things appear.
As a result, he was lying to himself and to his friends and family when it came to diving. Was he living a lie in his personal life?

He wanted to appear "expert." ..But wouldn't put the time or money into training. He appeared to be honest, religious, giving. ..But we know of at least one Instructor who turned him down as a Dive-Con candidate due to his attitude.

News reports paint a picture of this kind, bible reading, family oriented young businessman taking a year off to dive.
His actions portray that he had an utter lack of respect for training, for advice from experts, for rules and regulations, for private property, for himself, and for his loved ones.
If he could risk putting his family through immense difficulty by dying in a cave due to being self consumed, overconfident, irresponsible, lack of training, why not risk the same thing by disappearing?

About 140 pages ago I hypothesized that a disappearing act wouldn't have to be thought out. It could be totally spontanious. Everything was already in place for the ridiculous mapping project. He could have been standing in the parking lot after staging bottles when it occured to him that if he just left, right then and there, with all of his gear he could disappear.

Like John Wayne said:

"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid."

 

[diverdoug1]

I wonder if he wore that helmet in his ow class.

And Rob, you don't know any DIR smokers

Do you mean that by definition, they are not DIR if they secretly smoke? Or, do you belive that there are no DIR divers that secretly smoke? The former may be a valid point, I know the later to be untrue for a number of GUE trained individuals.

 

[LiteHedded]

The first one

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I'm perfect, except for when I'm not too. Ooops, lets make it better, I'm better than perfect, except for when I'm not.

What I don't understand is giving the course to someone who has that mentality. There were indications that Ben was intent on diving his own way. A check of his log book would have revealed that, or some of his behavior during the class would have been a good indicator as well. Why at that point continue with this class, knowing that the knowledge was going to be misused....was it just to make a fast buck???? Was it just because the instructor only had to get him through the course and didn't care if he killed himself in a cave afterward???? Was it because the instructor felt the OW SM course was going to add a margin of safety to Ben's blatant disregard of the rules?????

If he wasn't allowed to finish the OW SM class, do you think that would have any bearing at all on whether or not he would go dive the cave? I think not. Considering that OW SM isn't a cave class, it has zero bearing on his cave diving endeavors.

Did the instructor even ask or look into why Ben wanted the OW SM course???? Was it because that is what all the "cool kids" are doing??? Was it because of a health issue????(which I don't buy into at all, if an AL 80 is whipping your ass, two probably are not gonna make it any better) Or was the OW SM course taken so Ben could start/finish his map of THE CAVE AT VORTEX????

He obviously had aspirations to dive caves. Why is not a good idea to learn about a configuration you plan to use? Rather than take a class in a new configuration, and beat the hell out of the caves by being completely green?

Do you advocate divers go into training with gear completely new to them?

.......and NO it isn't way over my head. I get it !!!! But what about twin cylinders in any configuration is recreational???? Right off the bat, you are more likely to hit a deco obligation with two cylinders so no matter how you slice it, you are in an overhead environment at that point, whether an actual overhead of rock or steel, or a virtual one with decompression stops. Yeah yeah I know, plan the dive, dive the plan, ....blah blah blah. Well what happens when that young inexperienced OW SM diver forgets to check his BT or his depth gauge, things go sideways and he finds himself with a pretty large deco obligation... First question, does he even realize it??? Second question, What does he do about it???? Third, does he have the gas to pull it off??? Fourth, does he have the skills to pull it off????

Did your OW training sucks so bad that they didn't teach you to pay attention to your time, depth, NDL times? Lots of people do infact dive two cylinders in purely recreational environments - this is obviously lost on you. Its also quite easy to get out of NDL with single tanks as well, especially with multiple dives in a day. Yet, new divers aren't continuously kacking all over the place?

Based on what you have said in earlier post, it would be perfectly OK to do your OW course in SM if you knew a single tank wasn't the way you were gonna end up diving...... REALLLY???? How at that point in the game do you even know where you are gonna be diving, or even if you are gonna survive the OW class, much less what configuration you are gonna be diving in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years.......

Most people don't know, and obviously start in single cylinders. Did I say every diver knows where they'll be diving in 10 years? Some do, most don't. I bet there's alot of cavers out there that started diving strictly for cave diving, and not for the pretty little reef fish How much time do you think they spent in a single tank, in an environment they had zero interest in?

You do realize Ben had over 500 dives and had been certified for several years right? He's had just a bit of time to think about where he wants to be, regardless of whether or not he'd get the traning for it.

You brought up task loading....so lets think about that for a brand new certified OW diver, you remember don't you, buoyancy all over the place........oh **** there is water in my mask can I clear it without drowning.......hey where did my buddy go........breathe in, breathe out.....hey how long have I been here........how deep am I........hey fishy fishy....Oh **** SHARK ......WTF am I doing here???? and you think its OK to put this guy in a SM rig????? Sorry I don't agree with you there.

Ok, you just verified how bad your OW course was... Mine taught bouyancy, mask clearing, all that good stuff. Otherwise, you're pretending that diving a two cylinders is the equivelant to handling 4. You brought up new OW divers by the way, not me, and it has no bearing on this incident so ramble on baseless junk all ya want

I am wondering what would be the positive indicators...inside the cave, that are supposedly lacking, to show he actually died in the cave?

I don't know where he is, I just know he isn't in the back. You cannot scrape through tunnel thats chest in the mud, back to the ceiling, and narrow, without leaving obvious signs of your passage. To get beyond where some of the search divers went, you'd have to shed gear. There was no gear. Two mostly empty tanks in OW(without regs) and a stage 150'p into the cave does NOT get you to the back, and that doesn't even begin to address going through the tight passage in the back without a trace.

If you have information stop hinting around and spit it out!

There's about a million different speculations running around Vortex right now, some of them have already been posted. None of them are based on any real evidence - which is fine, because there's no real evidence he's in the cave either.

 

[alohagal]

Thank you Bug Man. I have been reading on this since the beginning...but not every thread and every forum (some of us do not qualify). I have had to rely on information doled out by others.

I have questions for you. Did his log book specifically spell out that he had his own lock on the gate? If not where did this information come from?

Was there surveillance tape or some other confirmed evidence he was stealing air?

Thanks in advance,
Mary