General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Fish-R-Man]

This whole gear discussion really makes no sense to me. The first thing I have to ask is. How many Florida cave divers that you know drive a 4-wheel drive vehicle? Does that makes sense? There isn't a hill high enough that you can't see over if you stand in the back of the truck... There is no snow.. So why have it. If you are driving down a nice paved highway and there is a dirt road off to the left. Do you automatically hit the breaks and slam the truck in to 4-wheel and go like hell until you roll over and die out in the boondocks someplace. The same goes for diving. Why shouldn't a capable new OW diver learn to dive in back mount or SM or Hooka or whatever. The main point is he has to LEARN.

I have to agree with DaleC. There are a significant number of advantages diving with SM doubles. There are also a number of advantages to diving with BM doubles. There are also draw backs to any gear configuration. If I could, I would dive with the SSA we used diving abalone. I just had a hose and reg, a weight belt and wet suit. It was by far the easiest diving I have done. Maybe not the safest, but 99.5% of the divers that were doing it back when I was, are still around and diving today.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Did his log book specifically spell out that he had his own lock on the gate? If not where did this information come from?

Was there surveillance tape or some other confirmed evidence he was stealing air?

That info came from a worker at Vortex, not from a logbook.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

This whole gear discussion really makes no sense to me. The first thing I have to ask is. How many Florida cave divers that you know drive a 4-wheel drive vehicle? Does that makes sense? There isn't a hill high enough that you can't see over if you stand in the back of the truck... There is no snow.. So why have it. If you are driving down a nice paved highway and there is a dirt road off to the left. Do you automatically hit the breaks and slam the truck in to 4-wheel and go like hell until you roll over and die out in the boondocks someplace.

Florida has no shortage of rain, mud, or sand. I don't drive a 4wd, because 99% of the time, 2wd is enough(thats for where I'm going, in different areas of FL, 4wd is probably more necessary). I drive a station wagon(2wd, not a cool Subaru), ground clearance is more of an issue than 4wd. There are times when I could use a bit more height.

Contrary to popular belief, the interstates don't run you to the doorstops of all the springs and sinks in FL.

 

[Fish-R-Man]

Florida has no shortage of rain, mud, or sand. I don't drive a 4wd, because 99% of the time, 2wd is enough(thats for where I'm going, in different areas of FL, 4wd is probably more necessary). I drive a station wagon(2wd, not a cool Subaru), ground clearance is more of an issue than 4wd. There are times when I could use a bit more height.

Contrary to popular belief, the interstates don't run you to the doorstops of all the springs and sinks in FL.

I used this as an example, not a slam on Florida cave divers....

I believe that you and I think along the same lines. Gear configuration is just part of the whole equation.

With my limited amount of cave training and the number of actually cave dives that I have, if I were to seek you out or any other of the qualified divers from the local area to make a dive with, I would let you know what my training level is. I would expect to make a couple of simple cavern or short penetration cave dives with you so that you could also be confident in my skill level. Whether we dove back mount or SM is irrelevent. If I have really good skills BM and issues with SM, we would just need to plan accordingly or work on the weaker skills until we were both confident that we would complete the dive with no issues.

This is where myself and most other divers seperate away from individuals like Ben. Knowing what our skill levels are, seeking out additional training or mentoring, practicing what new skills we learn until they are second nature, are just the way we feel/know it needs to be done. The gear we use, just gives us the ability to enjoy the sport, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[alohagal]

That info came from a worker at Vortex, not from a logbook.

Okay...that says a lot to me...and what I suspected all along. It has been reported and further misread elsewhere that YOU claimed to have read these things in his log book. I think that taking the word of this "worker" at this point is useless information. Especially, considering the chatter about what role this "worker" played in breaching the gate.

I still think a grave disservice occurred in the allegations against the character of this diver from the very beginning. And now the dots of erroneous information are being connected. At least for me they are.

Sorry if this offends anyone...but I think all the cards need to be laid on the table.

 

[Hetland]

Okay...that says a lot to me...and what I suspected all along. It has been reported and further misread elsewhere that YOU claimed to have read these things in his log book. I think that taking the word of this "worker" at this point is useless information. Especially, considering the chatter about what role this "worker" played in breaching the gate.

I still think a grave disservice occurred in the allegations against the character of this diver from the very beginning. And now the dots of erroneous information are being connected. At least for me they are.

Sorry if this offends anyone...but I think all the cards need to be laid on the table.

I think Mat read about Ben "fixing" the gate with his personal lock in the dive log. The part about stealing air came from the employee (unless I misunderstood something).

What chatter is there about an employee helping Ben break into the cave? That sounds fishy to me because the employee has a key. It would be easier to just let the guy in.

 

[alohagal]

I think Mat read about Ben "fixing" the gate with his personal lock in the dive log. The part about stealing air came from the employee (unless I misunderstood something).

What chatter is there about an employee helping Ben break into the cave? That sounds fishy to me because the employee has a key. It would be easier to just let the guy in.

Bingo...you win. I did not say "break" into cave...I said breach. Which could imply "allow"

Also, you think Mat read such and such. I want to know for sure. I asked two questions. Not sure which one was being answered. I don't want guessing at this point. I want to know exactly what the log book said. PERIOD.

 

[alohagal]

Since I have walked down this slippery slope I might as well continue. The worker is well liked by many of you. But the worker also needs to CYA.

It is only fair to fully dissect all parameters and players in this scenario. Not just one side. So, I am playing devils advocate. Someone needs to stop protecting the "in" crowd and call a spade a spade.
Should be an interesting Vortoberfest this year. Sorry I will miss it.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

Maybe it's my memory that is in error after multiple threads and thousands of posts.

I thought several divers confirmed the placement of a private lock on one of the chains that made up the "hinge" for the grate.

Why would this imply that this action was condoned by anyone at Vortex?

 

[alohagal]

Maybe it's my memory that is in error after multiple threads and thousands of posts.

I thought several divers confirmed the placement of a private lock on one of the chains that made up the "hinge" for the grate.

Why would this imply that this action was condoned by anyone at Vortex?

Depends on what information you are privy to.