General Vortex Incident Discussion

[MXGratefulDiver]

In regards to the bolded part... I don't think everyone thats tried has failed. I can think of two 3 letter organizations what have been doing pretty good, thus far (although I might disagree with some details of one or both of them from time to time).

... but you see, that's precisely the point. The training you recommend already exists ... and has for years. Didn't do much for Ben ... did it.

The devil's in getting folks like him to decide to take the class, and adopt the mindset it promotes.

Solve that problem and you've just created a more perfect world ... until you can manage that, however, you're just pissin' in the breeze.

My real concern/passion is with cave diving and cave diving safety. I think Sheck did a helluva job in making the sport safer across the board, but it has since come to a near standstill. Unfortunately, when someone dies in a cave, it directly impacts the rest of us who love and enjoy the sport. I hate it when people die, but I also hate it when I can't dive places. That's why I get into these threads.

And I can appreciate that. The issue I have is that your perspective is very narrow, and your position is very certain. You come across like a cocky kid who's got life all figured out and can't understand why all the adults are so dense. To those with more experience or broader perspective it's pretty obvious that you haven't even identified the questions yet ... much less figured out the answers.

It tends to make people not want to listen. That's not their problem ... it's yours ... at least if you're serious about getting your message out there.

Sheck came up with 5 great rules of safe cave diving. It is foolish to think that these are the end all and be all. At the moment, there IS a system out there that doesn't result in fatalities when it is followed. THIS is what should be taught, from start to finish, imo. The other stuff, unfortunately, does have fatalities attached to it. This is not a piecemeal thing, its all or nothing. Poor Ben got a partial education out of order, and he's gone.

Poor Ben decided not to take a cave class. You're doing what now ... expecting people to teach Sheck's rules in an OW class?

Once again ... move the cotton and pay attention ... the issue isn't the training, it's the choice made by the individual to not get trained for the type of diving he was determined to do.

You can't fix stupid, no matter how hard you try.

I think instructor shopping should be eliminated (base price across the board per locale), instructors should be held to a high standard, complaints need to actually be dealt with, students should have to progress no faster than at a certain rate and report what they went over in class IN PRIVATE to the next higher authority in the agency, cavern should be replaced with a skill refinement class, and if anything can be standardized, it should be, and it should be standardized based on real logic. Valve drills, s-drills, basic 5, fin kicks, etc. I went diving with a guy who passed intro to cave and couldn't even perform a frog kick. Somethin ain't right.

You get people to buy into it by trimming the fat. If you don't produce a good intro (or c1) diver, the next instructor inline MUST say something. You know, ethics. Personal integrity of the instructor base. Open standards, transparency. An overall reworking of the system. Its tough, its uncomfortable, and people's feelings might get hurt, but it WILL save lives.

... and how would you implement all of this ... get the government involved? That'll fix everything, I'm sure.

I just bet you're a political conservative ... life would be so simple if only everyone would do things YOUR way.

The world don't work like that ... no matter how much better you think it would be if it did. And ... hate to break it to ya ... but nothing you can do will ever change that reality.

I'm continually astounded at how one way of diving does not produce deaths, but the every man for himself personal preference easy way out was...does. I fully believe that Ben was taught something he shouldn't have been, "passed", got an ego boost, and killed himself (notice how different this is to what I posted above). All the while, he thought he knew enough because no one put him into a position to show him a higher standard or effectively communicate how little he really knew.

You ain't gonna change people like Ben by "showing him a higher standard". At best he'd politely listen and then go off and do what he wants anyhow. More likely he'd write you off as an arrogant prick and go off and do what he wants anyhow.

People like him got into diving precisely because it gives them an opportunity to make their own choices. That's what you don't seem to be getting. Not everyone wants to do things your way ... no matter how fervently you believe that they should ... not even if doing it their way eventually kills 'em. And there ain't a damn thing you will ever be able to do to change that.

And Steve, of course SM didn't cause it. It facilitated it.

No it didn't ... had he not taken the class he'd most likely just gone off and figured it out on his own. Folks like him aren't interested in the "rules" you'd seek to impose on the rest of us ... and nothing you can do will make him interested.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well why wouldn't his training involve a stage bottle or two??? I mean one of the arguments I have heard over and over again for OW SM is that more gas is better, redundancy, blah blah blah...so why stop with two bottles??? Hell lets do two SM bottles and 4 stages and 2 safeties. (just save the O2 bottle for the decompression course)

I will go onto say this Bob, someone with your skill level and years of diving experience should have no problem with learning a new discipline such as SM. I am just not sure whether it is something a still "wet behind the ears" OW diver should be tackling.

I don't see what is wrong with learning to dive in a single tank and paying your dues and working your way into a set of double cylinders....no matter the configuration. That method has seemed to work quite well for more than a few years....... it worked for me, and I will bet it worked for you too. This whole "too far, too fast" method of training has cost more than one diver their life.

There's nothing wrong with it. I happen to agree with your approach ... for me. Where we disagree is in the notion that you, I, or either of our two young friends has any control whatsoever over what someone else chooses to do.

We don't ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dive-aholic]

No, make it an agency requirement to cut the card. Just like the basic paperwork is now. Most tourist caves check certifications, state parks require certs to carry lights, so this really can be effective.

Peacock, Madison, Manatee...and the last several times I've been at Peacock, no one has come by to check cards. I've even forgotten to leave my card on the dash a couple of times. No card at Little River (I know...ugly cave...), Devil's can be accessed by boat. All of the Mill Pond caves can be accessed by boat.

I'm wondering what they'll pay to look. Go down and hang out for an hour or two for how much $$?

That would make cave divers look good...

 

[Dive-aholic]

Must not have been DIR if they smoke...

Just go look around the back of buildings or in the tree clusters. Just because they don't smoke in public doesn't mean they aren't closet smokers. I know of a few DIR closet smokers.

 

[cavediver256]

There's nothing wrong with it. I happen to agree with your approach ... for me. Where we disagree is in the notion that you, I, or either of our two young friends has any control whatsoever over what someone else chooses to do.

We don't ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

No Bob, actually I agree that we have no control over that. People are people, they do what they do.

What I don't understand is giving the course to someone who has that mentality. There were indications that Ben was intent on diving his own way. A check of his log book would have revealed that, or some of his behavior during the class would have been a good indicator as well. Why at that point continue with this class, knowing that the knowledge was going to be misused....was it just to make a fast buck???? Was it just because the instructor only had to get him through the course and didn't care if he killed himself in a cave afterward???? Was it because the instructor felt the OW SM course was going to add a margin of safety to Ben's blatant disregard of the rules?????

Did the instructor even ask or look into why Ben wanted the OW SM course???? Was it because that is what all the "cool kids" are doing??? Was it because of a health issue????(which I don't buy into at all, if an AL 80 is whipping your ass, two probably are not gonna make it any better) Or was the OW SM course taken so Ben could start/finish his map of THE CAVE AT VORTEX????

 

[cavediver256]

No because its an OW course and not built to task load to that extent. Its recreational by definition. I know, way over your head...

Well, at least we agree there there should be be some sort of limitation on the early phases training......we just disagree on where the line should be drawn.

.......and NO it isn't way over my head. I get it !!!! But what about twin cylinders in any configuration is recreational???? Right off the bat, you are more likely to hit a deco obligation with two cylinders so no matter how you slice it, you are in an overhead environment at that point, whether an actual overhead of rock or steel, or a virtual one with decompression stops. Yeah yeah I know, plan the dive, dive the plan, ....blah blah blah. Well what happens when that young inexperienced OW SM diver forgets to check his BT or his depth gauge, things go sideways and he finds himself with a pretty large deco obligation... First question, does he even realize it??? Second question, What does he do about it???? Third, does he have the gas to pull it off??? Fourth, does he have the skills to pull it off????

Based on what you have said in earlier post, it would be perfectly OK to do your OW course in SM if you knew a single tank wasn't the way you were gonna end up diving...... REALLLY???? How at that point in the game do you even know where you are gonna be diving, or even if you are gonna survive the OW class, much less what configuration you are gonna be diving in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years....... You brought up task loading....so lets think about that for a brand new certified OW diver, you remember don't you, buoyancy all over the place........oh **** there is water in my mask can I clear it without drowning.......hey where did my buddy go........breathe in, breathe out.....hey how long have I been here........how deep am I........hey fishy fishy....Oh **** SHARK ......WTF am I doing here???? and you think its OK to put this guy in a SM rig????? Sorry I don't agree with you there.

 

[alohagal]

Do people really think Ben would pull such a stunt and be yucking it up in Mexico? What would be the motivation to put his immediate family, MOM, DAD and surviving brother through that?

I am wondering what would be the positive indicators...inside the cave, that are supposedly lacking, to show he actually died in the cave?

Being in the Psych business...there is nothing in his background revealed thus far, to conclude he pulled a hoax. I find the brain injury theory more plausible...but, also highly unlikely. He would have dumped equipment upon surfacing.

I just find it difficult to believe he pulled a fast one here.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Do people really think Ben would pull such a stunt and be yucking it up in Mexico? What would be the motivation to put his immediate family, MOM, DAD and surviving brother through that?

I am wondering what would be the positive indicators...inside the cave, that are supposedly lacking, to show he actually died in the cave?

Being in the Psych business...there is nothing in his background revealed thus far, to conclude he pulled a hoax. I find the brain injury theory more plausible...but, also highly unlikely. He would have dumped equipment upon surfacing.

I just find it difficult to believe he pulled a fast one here.

The utter lack of any evidence that he is in there. He could not be in the back, would have left trails. The slide theory while remotely possible still lacks any merit. The amount of sand required to bury man and gear would be significant and be visable. Hard to hide a mountain that shouldn't be there. If he dumped his gear that would make it hard to vanish, he would have to take it. He couldn't be in the basin, he couldn't float down the creek cause they have a damn. This place has been turned upside down and no signs found. Could he be there? Sure. Just highly unlikely. And as far as the psyhc goes, you don't havee all the information yet.

 

[alohagal]

The utter lack of any evidence that he is in there. He could not be in the back, would have left trails. The slide theory while remotely possible still lacks any merit. The amount of sand required to bury man and gear would be significant and be visable. Hard to hide a mountain that shouldn't be there. If he dumped his gear that would make it hard to vanish, he would have to take it. He couldn't be in the basin, he couldn't float down the creek cause they have a damn. This place has been turned upside down and no signs found. Could he be there? Sure. Just highly unlikely. And as far as the psyhc goes, you don't havee all the information yet.

Kevin...do YOU have extra information that has NOT been revealed? That is why I stated REVEALED thus far. As for dumping gear...I only meant if he had a brain injury he would have dumped gear. Trying to vanish is a different story.

If you have information stop hinting around and spit it out!

 

[Rick Murchison]

No, make it an agency requirement to cut the card. Just like the basic paperwork is now. Most tourist caves check certifications, state parks require certs to carry lights, so this really can be effective.

In this case cave access not only requires a card, but a key issued for the gate.
Did a lot of good, didn't it?
Rick