General Vortex Incident Discussion

[cavediver256]

There is simply no public safety issue in diving; a drunk solo untrained cave diver isn't likely to kill you in a head-on collision. So while I'm all for the availability of the very best training, I'm also for personal freedom... even the freedom to be terminally stupid... and for the bureaucrats to stay away... way, way away... from diving.
Rick

Problem is, many more of these barn yard stupid people die in these caves, and none of us will be able to prevent the bureaucrats from getting involved......

 

[Rick Murchison]

A little recap of the original topic.

So, the family and the sheriff are convinced that Ben went past the deepest restriction and died there.

Experts on the scene reported that there is no evidence that anyone has been that far back in years. There are no scratch marks, and the restriction is only 4 inches wide. Ben's head, esp. with helmet, is way bigger than that.
I may be mistaken, but the tanks in the recent foto appear to be 8 inchers.
...
Unless there is unpublished evidence beyond the cadaver dogs tracking to the water's edge, I'm going to have to go with the overwhelming evidence that he isn't in there.

If I were to place a bet, I'd bet he's in the cave, under sand, well short of the "final" restriction. But the odds are certainly shifting towards his being elsewhere, I think.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

Problem is, many more of these barn yard stupid people die in these caves, and none of us will be able to prevent the bureaucrats from getting involved......

Precisely.
Freedom's messy.
But it's worth the constant battle.

Rick

 

[PfcAJ]

Or...we could just demand a higher standard from the cave instructors.

Force of law? Nah. Hopefully not. Just take the instructor credentials away from the bad instructors.

My bet is he's in Cancun, enjoying a frosty beverage.

 

[cavediver256]

Or...we could just demand a higher standard from the cave instructors.

Force of law? Nah. Hopefully not. Just take the instructor credentials away from the bad instructors.

My bet is he's in Cancun, enjoying a frosty beverage.

Or hanging out at his instructor's house, laughing about all these threads.......

 

[BabyDuck]

there are many many excellent cave instructors. you know what? he did not avail himself of any of them.

what good are better standards of teaching cave diving if yayhoos are just gonna strap on any equipment they can find and cut through chains for access? what difference would it make? none! the info is available - *he* made the choice not to get it.

 

[ucfdiver]

And would your "requirements" have the force of law? Would there be fines and other penalties for violating them? If not, how would you propose to enforce them?
There is simply no public safety issue in diving; a drunk solo untrained cave diver isn't likely to kill you in a head-on collision. So while I'm all for the availability of the very best training, I'm also for personal freedom... even the freedom to be terminally stupid... and for the bureaucrats to stay away... way, way away... from diving.
Rick

No, make it an agency requirement to cut the card. Just like the basic paperwork is now. Most tourist caves check certifications, state parks require certs to carry lights, so this really can be effective.

You seem to miss my cause of concern as well. I'm not concerned that a poor diver will injure me while diving as a drunk driver would. It's the fact that the landowners I've spoken with don't hear about the 500 safe cave dives made every weekend, they hear about the 8 deaths in a single year.

Politically I'm as free spirited as anyone. I don't give a rats rear end if you want to do even the hardest of drugs and kill yourself. But I'm also a realist. We don't live in a cube, our actions effect others. Seen the health care bill? We get to pay for the drug addicts medical bills. The alcoholics trashed liver. The smokers lung cancer. Innocent people die because selfish people choose to drive drunk and avoid splitting a cab or hotel room.

In the case of diving, if we don't step it up, someone else will. Actually, they have. Certain Florida counties banned diving, or at least cave diving all together because of the deaths. Now sure, people still dove sinks in the woods, but lots of springs became off limits.

 

[Fish-R-Man]

We have a fundamental disagreement not so much on scuba, but on if people's judgement can be fixed. I think it can be fixed, you think it can't. I think a high level of training (actual training, not this faux training we talk about a lot) can greatly influence a person's decision making.

But I'm sure when I'm older I'll see it your way, at least thats what you usually say when we argue about stuff on here.

On a side note on high level training. This spring I was taking my Intro to cave in Mexico with an instructor that has been diving in the caves systems there for years and in Europe before that. The last day of the class, three German divers came to dive the same cenote we were working in. These guys had identical gear. The same regs, dry suits, gaiters, computers, you name it. The only thing I saw different between them was one had a slightly different mask. The entered the water and went through their safety drills with military precision. My instructor and I watched the proceedings and as a new cave diver I was impressed. I mentioned this to him and his response was “DIR…. Those guys are very good divers. Everything they do is by the book.” He then went on to say that “I would not dive with any of them on an extended cave dive”. When I asked him why, his response was “They train themselves into a box, you need to be able to think outside of it…. Besides they all smoke”. I believe there is some truth to that. You can train a person to be able to respond to almost any situation. I don’t believe that you can teach people to have sound judgment . You definitely won’t be able to regulate them into it.

 

[PfcAJ]

Must not have been DIR if they smoke...

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Okay...so since everyone is in absolute, no doubt about it, agreement that Ben went beyond his training...are we now agreeing that he is in the cave?

There's proof he dived beyond his training and skillset, there's no substantial proof he's in the cave. The two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

1) IF BEN HAD COMPLETED AN OW SM COURSE, HOW IN THE WORLD COULD HIS GEAR HAVE BEEN SO F**KED UP ON HIS LAST DIVE????
2) DID HE COMPLETE THE OW SM COURSE CONFIGURED LIKE HE WAS IN THE PHOTO????

1) Its pretty obvious he got new tanks and a new regulator. We know he did the classes in yoked AL80s. Its easy to surmise he bought HP130s with din valves and another regulator, then rigged up his existing yoke regulator to work with the DIN valves. Why is it easy to surmise? Because of the attitude you alluded to previously.

2) No

And Steve, of course SM didn't cause it. It facilitated it.

No it didn't. He was bound for idiocy no matter what. Is it that hard to see that?

Well why wouldn't his training involve a stage bottle or two??? I mean one of the arguments I have heard over and over again for OW SM is that more gas is better, redundancy, blah blah blah...so why stop with two bottles??? Hell lets do two SM bottles and 4 stages and 2 safeties. (just save the O2 bottle for the decompression course)

Because its an OW course and not built to task load to that extent. Its recreational by definition. I know, way over your head...

I will go onto say this Bob, someone with your skill level and years of diving experience should have no problem with learning a new discipline such as SM. I am just not sure whether it is something a still "wet behind the ears" OW diver should be tackling.

Why?

I don't see what is wrong with learning to dive in a single tank and paying your dues and working your way into a set of double cylinders....no matter the configuration. That method has seemed to work quite well for more than a few years....... it worked for me, and I will bet it worked for you too. This whole "too far, too fast" method of training has cost more than one diver their life.

Pay your dues by diving a configuration you know you won't continue with? Thats retarted. SM isn't new, you do realize that? I personally regret ever diving BM doubles, straight up.

People don't die diving deep air, either. But then again, some do. People don't die making visual jumps...then again, some do. People don't die switching to unmarked bottles, but then a few do, as well. People don't die solo...but every once in a while...some do. People don't always die on rebreathers...but...some do. Some folks even SM and don't die, but some do. Some don't die diving an unbalanced rig, yet some do. Some don't die diving BM doubles, but some do. Some folks don't die after being GUE/WKPP trained, but some do. Heck, even Sheck almost bit it because of an unbalanced rig.

Fixed it for ya, we're all screwed now.

But I'm also a realist.

I think a realist would see through the BS and realize that Ben made the decision to dive beyond his training, regardless of quality. Standards, rules, alphabet soup... none of that would have changed that fact.