Force Fins vs Jetfins - tek diving and all the kicks

[TN Traveler]

I hope you and your Force fins have a long and happy relationship (no apology for the sarcasm) but if it takes this much effort for a product to gain market traction then perhaps the issue is the product itself and not the divers who ignore it. As for a comprehension problem, I have no problem comprehending that you can't handle dissenting opinion without being a complete tool.

Force Fins have been in existence for over 25 years - they are NOT trying to gain traction in the market. They are not mass marketed nor is there any desire for them to be mass marketed. If that was Bob's desires, he would have sold the operation to one of the big companies years ago - and I know he has had offers. Bob does not even make his living off Force Fins - they are a work from his heart - he wants to produce a better product that meets the needs of his customers. If you did ANY research on them you would find a list of people who use them reads like a "who's who" of the dive world - the Cousteaus, John Chatterton, Sylvia Earl, etc - and none of them are paid to use them and none are asked to endorse them.

All I have ever tried to do is to educate those who have questions about Force Fins - I have no financial interest in the company nor will I ever have. I do hate when people make false statements or badmouth a product they never tried.

I would not even credit you with being a tool - there is always some usefulness in any tool.

---------- Post added April 24th, 2015 at 01:56 PM ----------

I think it'd be easier to get a diver to change religions than to change fins.

And if you are happy with your fins - there is no need to change. But if you are looking for/need something better - it just might be out there.

 

[Dhboner]

This is just the second time I have dared to criticize Force Fins on ScubaBoard and the second time I have been dumped on by some evangelical twit. As for a "who's who" of the dive world I would no sooner by a fin because those people got a few free pairs than I would if Justin Bieber used Force Fins. I am glad you like them and I hope you have many happy dives together, but the simple truth (that seems to continually evade you) is that almost every discussion on the merits of Force Fins includes a discussion about needing more than one model depending on your diving style/s and having to potentially change your finning technique to use them properly. Bob Evans might want to shorten your leash if he wants any of the rest of us to give his fins a chance.

 

[TN Traveler]

Your idea of criticizing Force Fins is not constructive - all I have ever seen you do in ANY post is try and make an idiotic post that winds up with an insult. Your signature line says it all - all you want to do is "stir the pot".

And I am not on Bob's leash and he does not give the fins away. In fact several of the divers mentioned have been offered $$ to endorse other fins and refused.

Nor would I ever expect you to try them because your major concern seems to be price - and Force Fins will never compete on price when up against a mass produced, thermoplastic, machine made fin.

Nobody - least of all me - have ever said you need to own multiple force fins (I have said that using the proper kicking technique enhances their effectiveness - but that is true of ALL fins) - all that was said is "there are models that will fit your style of diving available - so take some time to learn about them and pick the right model!" So please do not try putting words in my mouth.

In summary:
If all you do is putter around the shallow reefs for example in the Keys - then you need nothing more than Originals/Pros - depending on your leg strength.
If you dive deep, are looking to use less energy, and conserve air - then you should consider Hockey's or Extras
If you want to do penetrations (cave or wrecks) then Excellerators, Flying or Hockeys work best for frog kicks.
Need to handle ripping currents - get the Tan Delta material.
If you have problems with ankles, knees, hips or if you cramp easily - any Force Fin will help because of the foot pocket design

Educate, Educate, Educate!!!!!

 

[Dhboner]

But what if I "putter around a reef" only to slide down a wall for a bit of "deep diving" whereupon I happen upon a "wreck to penetrate" but struggle with the unexpected "current"...My drysuit pockets must be bulging with all those specialty fins. Anyway I am done with this thread.

 

[TN Traveler]

But what if I "putter around a reef" only to slide down a wall for a bit of "deep diving" whereupon I happen upon a "wreck to penetrate" but struggle with the unexpected "current"...My drysuit pockets must be bulging with all those specialty fins. Anyway I am done with this thread.

I can hardly believe ANYONE but YOU would make such a DUMB STATEMENT - buy the type fin that fits that fits your most demanding diving - not everyone is doing penetrations or long wall dives, etc - duh, it that hard to understand?

I give you credit though - you can dream up the most imaginative possibilities. Must be great to live in an alternative universe.

 

[nimoh]

I can hardly believe ANYONE but YOU would make such a DUMB STATEMENT - buy the type fin that fits that fits your most demanding diving - not everyone is doing penetrations or long wall dives, etc - duh, it that hard to understand?

I give you credit though - you can dream up the most imaginative possibilities. Must be great to live in an alternative universe.

I think he makes a good point. On any given, I will be doing helicopter turns, back kicks, modified flutter kicks, full flutter kicks, modified frog kicks and full frog kicks regardless of whether I am in a cave, in a wreck, on a reef, in current or even in a pool. Which Force Fin would be appropriate for this type of diving?

 

[TN Traveler]

I think he makes a good point. On any given, I will be doing helicopter turns, back kicks, modified flutter kicks, full flutter kicks, modified frog kicks and full frog kicks regardless of whether I am in a cave, in a wreck, on a reef, in current or even in a pool. Which Force Fin would be appropriate for this type of diving?

My suggestion would be Hockey Fins - they will do all you are asking for at a more reasonable cost. If you told me you were diving the Speigal Grove, with ripping currents often, the the Excellerators in Tan Delta, would probably be better, but they come with a high price.

thanks for a real and intelligent question!

---------- Post added April 24th, 2015 at 08:06 PM ----------

By the way, I do not mean to indicate that Hockey' Fins are not good in current - they will outperform Jets as far as power and you can swim a whole lot longer without cramping (this is because of the foot pocket design). They a are my "go to" fin for 90%+ of my diving - used regularly in both Cozumel and on the wrecks in Key Largo.

Hope that further explains my suggestion.

 

[StefinSB]

And nobody here is "marketing" Force Fins

Ehhm, you are. An not in a positive way I might add.

And I will say there is no fully objective way to PROVE that any fin is more efficient and provides more value unless you use them and make your own judgement. Trying to PROVE it with any objective certainty would require a dynamic model to analyze the fin's performance over the entire range of motion - and there is not enough $$$ in the entire industry to hire the expertise and computer time (it would probably need to be run on the Cheetah at ORNL). So I seriously doubt there will ever be ABSOLUTE PROOF!

Nobody asked for absolute proof; whatever that is in the first place. A simple video would do. The only video(s) presented so far showed sub-par performance of the FF. The reason is of course clear now: They must have used the wrong model in the video.

As far as value - that is determined by each individual based on their particular set of values. Is a Ferrari a better value than a Fiat? That depends on the buyer's perspective. Are the manufacturing practices at Ferrari inefficient as compared to Fiat - probably since they mass produce Fiats and labor/materials are much lower per unit. You are comparing two different economic/value models if you compare Ferrari's to Fiat's - just like if you compare Quattro's to Excellerator's.

Ferrari is part of FIAT in case you did not know. Besides, neither you nor any marketing material from FF has shown so far that FF are the "Ferrari of the fin world" in terms of performance. It is just you blowing hot air so far. Why don't you make a simple video: you in FF fins (the correct model of course for the conditions present) and your buddy in a "mass produced model" and you compare things doing the same propulsion techniques?

As far a producing in the US. Look at Deep Sea Supply. They make competitive products at very competitive prices in CA mind you. So it can be done unfortunately not (yet) by you and FF.

 

[dmaziuk]

My suggestion would be Hockey Fins - they will do all you are asking for at a more reasonable cost

Unavailable. Also "more reasonable" isn't gonna be much below $200 and does not include the pad ($30+), the trimmings ($90+), or the slinky strap (~$50). In the meantime the most expensive regular paddle fin on LP right now is seawing gorilla @ $209. I honestly wish Bob never runs out of customers with government procurement accounts backed by taxpayers' bottomless pockets, because if he ever has to live off consumer sales, he'll starve.

 

[TN Traveler]

Ehhm, you are. An not in a positive way I might add.



Nobody asked for absolute proof; whatever that is in the first place. A simple video would do. The only video(s) presented so far showed sub-par performance of the FF. The reason is of course clear now: They must have used the wrong model in the video.



Ferrari is part of FIAT in case you did not know. Besides, neither you nor any marketing material from FF has shown so far that FF are the "Ferrari of the fin world" in terms of performance. It is just you blowing hot air so far. Why don't you make a simple video: you in FF fins (the correct model of course for the conditions present) and your buddy in a "mass produced model" and you compare things doing the same propulsion techniques?

As far a producing in the US. Look at Deep Sea Supply. They make competitive products at very competitive prices in CA mind you. So it can be done unfortunately not (yet) by you and FF.

Let me state this very simply - I am not marketing Force Fins - I have attempted to respond to questions and to try and explain to people that there are many models and picking the right model for your diving needs takes some thought/knowledge . Also, I have no control or input into what it costs to make Force Fins and whether or not YOU see them as competitive is your value judgement. They cost what they cost!!!

As far as my "blowing hot air" - the only hot air is coming from your flaming - I provide my experiences with Force Fins, you can believe it or not - I have nothing, repeat, nothing to gain from if you believe me or if you buy Force Fins.

As far as the videos go - all the ones, except for the demonstration of the rebound properties of the new Tan Delta, are over 6 years old and were done prior to the development of most of the higher end fins and the use of higher end materials,

If you want to meet me for some diving in a warm water location and you want to bring the video equipment, we can run side by side comparative tests (I don't own UW video equipment nor do any of my dive companions). Besides, if you are not part of the test, you will always claim that the test was "cooked", since it is obvious you already have a bias. So if you want the test, put your money where your mouth is!!! (at least you will get a dive trip out of it and form your own opinion)

An yes, I am well aware that Fiat owns Ferrari (and Chrysler also). What has that got to do with the quality/value of a product?

---------- Post added April 26th, 2015 at 04:29 PM ----------

Unavailable. Also "more reasonable" isn't gonna be much below $200 and does not include the pad ($30+), the trimmings ($90+), or the slinky strap (~$50). In the meantime the most expensive regular paddle fin on LP right now is seawing gorilla @ $209. I honestly wish Bob never runs out of customers with government procurement accounts backed by taxpayers' bottomless pockets, because if he ever has to live off consumer sales, he'll starve.

Again - making statements without PROPER knowledge. It has already been stated that NONE of the higher end Force Fins is available until production is moved from CA to PA. And ALL the higher end fins come with your choice of bungie or cloth heel strap, a set of comfort insteps and a carry bag. I don't know what your $90 for "Trimmings" is for.

Also, Bob does not rely on Force Fins to make a living - I know he seriously considered shutting down Force Fins but was persuaded to keep it going by people who wanted the products.

And as far as the cost of fins on LP - if price is your only consideration - I will repeat, again - you do not need/want nor would you be a good prospective user of Force Fins. You can buy snorkel fins that WILL work for $20, so why not just use them - or you can use carbon fiber free diving fins for $1000, maybe they should be your choice. Your argument on $$$ is illogical.