Force Fins vs Jetfins - tek diving and all the kicks

[StefinSB]

And do you think that labor costs in Taiwan or Italy are the same as in the US???

And lots of fins ARE made in China because it the cheapest place to manufacture them.

Plus, your fins were made by machines, they are thermoformed - those machines turn out hundreds of fins per day.

The only reason I mention any manufacturing location is to try and explain to people why Force Fins cost more.

I don't care what fins you want to dive, if they work for you - great. If you want a better performing fin and are willing to pay the price, then you might want to consider Force Fins (pick the right model).
I just have a problem with people questioning the cost of Force Fins without understanding the reason for the cost and the benefits you get. If the benefits don't justify the cost to you - dive what fits your need/budget but don't bad mouth a product because of its cost when you are ignorant of the reasons/benefits.

Dude, I did not badmouth any product. You just seemed obsessed with manufacturing in China in order to justify your, in comparison, high sales price. By the way, the benefits of your FF are not clear. The few videos out there are more like pathetic infomercials. You claim that the fins are good, e.g. for a frog kick but lacked so far to show any proof for that. As a scientist I am sure you would agree that a claim without proof is comparable to a puff of hot air.

 

[TN Traveler]

Dude, I did not badmouth any product. You just seemed obsessed with manufacturing in China in order to justify your, in comparison, high sales price. By the way, the benefits of your FF are not clear. The few videos out there are more like pathetic infomercials. You claim that the fins are good, e.g. for a frog kick but lacked so far to show any proof for that. As a scientist I am sure you would agree that a claim without proof is comparable to a puff of hot air.

The only real proof anyone can have with fin performance and benefits is by trying them. Most of the videos out there and I viewed a couple, are of people trying to demonstrate alternative kicks with Original/Pros and I fully admit, these fins are, in my experience, not suited to these kicks without some (strange) modifications. These videos were all made at least 5 years ago, before the newer designs that work with alternate kicks were even produced. I am not sure what most of them even show. There are not many of the higher end fins out there and unfortunately none of the users has made a video to demonstrate them. I know I have tried and own several pair of different fins (both Force Fins and Mares) and regularly use a couple of different Force Fin models depending on the type of diving I am doing (and how my legs are holding up at the time). I find that having those options is worth it for me - your mileage may vary.

I did not accuse you of badmouthing the fins, all I said is if you have not tried them, I don't think you should badmouth them just based on price. If you read my comments, I have readily admitted that some models do not work with certain kicks and that you need to do your homework and find a fin that meets your diving needs - you do the cost benefit analysis. And if you think there is a great difference between the cost of mass produced fins from Italy, China or Taiwan I would question your source for cost data. If if you compare the cost (thermoplastic materials and labor) of mass produced fins vs fins that are handmade out of high quality urethane materials in the USA and don't understand the reason for the cost difference, I am wasting my time and yours trying to explain it.

 

[ams511]

Not sure why you are so obsessed with China. My Mares Power Planas were made in Taiwan and my wifes came from Italy. Hardly low cost manufacturing countries. They fit nicely btw.

Taiwan is a low-cost manufacturing country. Some factories use labor from the mainland, some may be made on the mainland. As far as Italy goes I saw a news report on genuine designer bags being made by illegals in Italy. I am not saying that Mares does this but Mares may not even make the fins. They may contract the production to another company. I remember talking to a Chinese producer and he told me he could sew the label of any country of manufacture himself.

 

[dmaziuk]

I just have a problem with people questioning the cost of Force Fins without understanding the reason for the cost and the benefits you get. If the benefits don't justify the cost to you - dive what fits your need/budget but don't bad mouth a product because of its cost when you are ignorant of the reasons/benefits.

I don't think anyone's badmouthing the product, I'm badmouthing the simple fact that this product's price range goes from more than "every other fin" to "more than some DPVs" and the product's been mostly unobtainable for the last couple of years at least. It's a bit hard to imagine how much benefit it'd take to outweigh those costs -- to the user. I'm sure it looks different from the manufacturer's side, but that's not where I'm looking from.

 

[StefinSB]

Oh so you saw some news report that some designer bags were allegedly made by "illegals" in Italy. Great. Not sure what this has to do with expensive fins ......

This is actually really funny. Instead of coming up with proof why the FF offer so much more value to the customer you just badmouth manufacturing conditions in countries like Italy and try to justify your high price due to inefficient manufacturing practices at FF. This is not very productive marketing.

Taiwan is a low-cost manufacturing country. Some factories use labor from the mainland, some may be made on the mainland. As far as Italy goes I saw a news report on genuine designer bags being made by illegals in Italy. I am not saying that Mares does this but Mares may not even make the fins. They may contract the production to another company. I remember talking to a Chinese producer and he told me he could sew the label of any country of manufacture himself.

 

[TN Traveler]

I won't even respond to your comment on "designer bags in Italy" since I did not make that observation.

And nobody here is "marketing" Force Fins - the question that was asked is "can Force Fins perform alternative kicks?" and the response was "very well IF you use the right model"! And I pointed out that Force Fin is a brand that provides numerous models of fins (the same as Mares, TUSA, ScubaPro, etc.) - even though most people are under the impression that the only model is what I refer to as "Originals/Pros.

And I will say there is no fully objective way to PROVE that any fin is more efficient and provides more value unless you use them and make your own judgement. Trying to PROVE it with any objective certainty would require a dynamic model to analyze the fin's performance over the entire range of motion - and there is not enough $$$ in the entire industry to hire the expertise and computer time (it would probably need to be run on the Cheetah at ORNL). So I seriously doubt there will ever be ABSOLUTE PROOF!

As far as value - that is determined by each individual based on their particular set of values. Is a Ferrari a better value than a Fiat? That depends on the buyer's perspective. Are the manufacturing practices at Ferrari inefficient as compared to Fiat - probably since they mass produce Fiats and labor/materials are much lower per unit. You are comparing two different economic/value models if you compare Ferrari's to Fiat's - just like if you compare Quattro's to Excellerator's.

I have tried to explain to (collective) you why FFs costs are higher than mass produced fins but at this point, if you do not comprehend what I have presented, then I guess I will admit my failure to communicate and let you continue with your own reality.

 

[Dhboner]

What I am hearing here is that Force Fins perform comparably to Jets (and other conventional fins) IF you buy the right model and use the right technique. So, in summary, I pay a HUGE amount more than conventional fins, hope I chose the right model and then watch YouTube to learn how to use them effectively. Good luck with that business model, I'll stick with my Dive Rites.

 

[TN Traveler]

What I am hearing here is that Force Fins perform comparably to Jets (and other conventional fins) IF you buy the right model and use the right technique. So, in summary, I pay a HUGE amount more than conventional fins, hope I chose the right model and then watch YouTube to learn how to use them effectively. Good luck with that business model, I'll stick with my Dive Rites.

Obviously you have a comprehension problem.

What has been said is that there are models of Force Fins that will perform as well or better than Jets when doing alternative kicks - but Force Fins are exponentially easier on your ankles, knees and hips - especially on long swims or in currents (and although it is much less important, they are also much faster using the same effort). I said there are videos on YouTube that show you how to Frog Kick with Originals/Pros (which I personally don't recommend)- but Frog Kicks with the other models is done exactly the same as with Jets/DRs/...

Is that simple enough for you to understand????? (No apology for the sarcasm).

 

[Dhboner]

Obviously you have a comprehension problem.

What has been said is that there are models of Force Fins that will perform as well or better than Jets when doing alternative kicks - but Force Fins are exponentially easier on your ankles, knees and hips - especially on long swims or in currents (and although it is much less important, they are also much faster using the same effort). I said there are videos on YouTube that show you how to Frog Kick with Originals/Pros (which I personally don't recommend)- but Frog Kicks with the other models is done exactly the same as with Jets/DRs/...

Is that simple enough for you to understand????? (No apology for the sarcasm).

I hope you and your Force fins have a long and happy relationship (no apology for the sarcasm) but if it takes this much effort for a product to gain market traction then perhaps the issue is the product itself and not the divers who ignore it. As for a comprehension problem, I have no problem comprehending that you can't handle dissenting opinion without being a complete tool.

 

[RJP]

I think it'd be easier to get a diver to change religions than to change fins.