Force Fins vs Jetfins - tek diving and all the kicks

[TN Traveler]

As usual your analysis and your language skills are faulty. Please pay attention to what I said, "The mold cost is the same to make one fin or a thousand". This is true unless there is some degradation of the mold before then. Which you do not mention.

As to your analysis. The mold is a sunk cost meaning it was already paid for and cannot be recovered, consequently your allocations have no cash flow effect for Bob. I am not sure when (if ever) you took a managerial accounting course but the contribution margin approach has been taught since at least the early 1980s. If Bob is able to sell the fins for more than his variable costs (production costs, packaging, shipping, etc.) then he will have cash to cover his fixed costs. The objective is to maximize the total contribution margin. This assumes the rest of his costs are fixed period costs that do not vary with the number of fins sold.

As far as developing an exclusive product that depends on the margins and volume. He would be better off selling 2 fins each with a $200 contribution margin than 1 fin with a $300 contribution margin. I am not sure of what the elasticity of demand is for scuba fins, but Force Fins start in price where most other fins end. I am sure Scubapro would sell a Tactical Jet Fin for $500 if they thought they could get it.

I am sure that ScubaPro would do what you are saying, IF they could make it for $5 and sell it for $500.

As far as Force Fin's business model, I am not privy to their books, so I cannot provide any "real" data. Whether their business model is good or bad from your academic perspective, I have no idea. What does seem to come across from you, is you have limited knowledge of manufacturing a low volume molded product, using high $$ materials that does not fit the mass produced model you seem to want to use for comparison. Mold costs are not a one time expense (plus repairs and replacement) and must be amortized over their life - which means each fin produced must cover a portion of the initial/replacement cost.

I can tell you that Force Fins are made in 7 sizes (S, M, M-L, L, XL, XXL and XXXL) and each size requires a different mold. The designs are adjusted to maximize performance - smaller sizes tend to be shorter, narrower and thinner to provide the proper flex for the material being used. I believe that there are 8-10 models of Force Fins with fixed foot pockets and 4 that have adjustable pockets.

I can say for sure that in the case of the Flying Force Fin, in Tan Delta (#1) - I own pair number 120 (Bob signs and numbers all the higher end fins). So in the process of making 120 fins, he has probably created 7 molds at a cost of thousands of $$. So, if these fins are sold for $600 a pair, it does not seem that there is a tremendous profit margin - in fact, I doubt that there is much profit. These are manufactured because Bob wants to offer a product that will meet the needs/wants of the type of diver who is willing to pay for performance. My guess is that the Originals, Pros, Slim Fins, and SD-1s provide the vast majority of the income because of their higher volumes (and are therefore less expensive).

By the way - if you want to discuss credentials - we can have that discussion offline - but I assure you, mine are impeccable both academically and from a manufacturing/management standpoint.

 

[dmaziuk]

And Force Fins probably sells over 100 Originals/Pros for every 1 of the high end, Tan Delta fins. Bob makes these fins to provide them for divers who need them or appreciate what they do, out of love for the sport, not to make big $$$ from them.

Judging by the number of FFs I've seen he's probably sold over a hundred originals ever. (As in "my OW cert. instructor had a couple of pairs, that's all FFs I've ever seen IRL".)

 

[TN Traveler]

I know for a fact that he routinely gets orders for several hundred Originals and Pros fom the U.S. Military/Coast Guard and the governments of Italy, France, and others.

maybe you ought be hanging out with a higher class of divers.

 

[StefinSB]

Force Fins are more expensive because they are HAND made, limited production in the USA - they are not turned out by the thousands in a Chinese Factory using injection molding machines (a few sizes fits all??).

Not sure why you are so obsessed with China. My Mares Power Planas were made in Taiwan and my wifes came from Italy. Hardly low cost manufacturing countries. They fit nicely btw.

 

[scubadada]

TN Traveler,

If you are not on retainer with FF, you should be, you are a one man advertising agency. I've never seen such an advocate of a diving product.

Best, Craig

 

[TN Traveler]

Not sure why you are so obsessed with China. My Mares Power Planas were made in Taiwan and my wifes came from Italy. Hardly low cost manufacturing countries. They fit nicely btw.

And do you think that labor costs in Taiwan or Italy are the same as in the US???

And lots of fins ARE made in China because it the cheapest place to manufacture them.

Plus, your fins were made by machines, they are thermoformed - those machines turn out hundreds of fins per day.

The only reason I mention any manufacturing location is to try and explain to people why Force Fins cost more.

I don't care what fins you want to dive, if they work for you - great. If you want a better performing fin and are willing to pay the price, then you might want to consider Force Fins (pick the right model).
I just have a problem with people questioning the cost of Force Fins without understanding the reason for the cost and the benefits you get. If the benefits don't justify the cost to you - dive what fits your need/budget but don't bad mouth a product because of its cost when you are ignorant of the reasons/benefits.

 

[Dave616]

I couldn't fight the currents last year in Coz with my FF Pro's. This year I brought DR XT's and had a much better experience in the currents. Frog kicking and turning was much easier for me but it's most likely because I haven't mastered my FF's. I still like FF's and wish I had spent $200 extra at this point.

I will probably end up with a pair of Extra's in TD some day... but not tomorrow

 

[TN Traveler]

TN Traveler,

If you are not on retainer with FF, you should be, you are a one man advertising agency. I've never seen such an advocate of a diving product.

Best, Craig

I am not on retainer - I admire Bob Evens for his creativity and passion for the sport. We are similar in that we are both small business owners that came from the corporate world and want to do things the right way (not driven by the almighty quest for more $$$). I happen to have a background in Chemical Engineering and product manufacturing which matches a lot of what Force Fin does plus I have a background in design that makes me very appreciative of what Bob has done - by using his powers of observation and determination to learn what works and what does not. Building the proverbial "better mousetrap" is a quest we are both on.

All I do is try and educate and I have a passion for opposing stupid statements from people who comment on things they do not understand. My advocacy is strictly based on my belief that if you understand what is really going on and the options available, you can make a better choice.

I dive a Freedom Plate with an Oxycheq Extreme Wing for the same reason - both are to me a value choice because they provide an extra performance advantage that I am willing to pay for - but I don't feel that everyone should do as I do nor do I feel if others make a different choice that it is wrong (but if you don't understand the reasons that these products cost more and bad mouth them because of cost, I will try and educate you as to why they provide value).

Hope that helps you understand my position.

---------- Post added April 22nd, 2015 at 01:08 PM ----------

I couldn't fight the currents last year in Coz with my FF Pro's. This year I brought DR XT's and had a much better experience in the currents. Frog kicking and turning was much easier for me but it's most likely because I haven't mastered my FF's. I still like FF's and wish I had spent $200 extra at this point.

I will probably end up with a pair of Extra's in TD some day... but not tomorrow

You will never get an argument from me that FF Pros do not frog kick well - I know some people can do an acceptable frog kick with them but I am not one. I will agree with you when you say that you wish you had purchased TD Extras (if you do, get them with whiskers for added control and performance). I would also suggest you try the Hockey Fins, if you get a chance - they frog kick like Jets but handle currents great without killing your legs/knees/ankles if you have to swim for a long time. They are my favorite fin for photo work.

 

[knotical]

... I would also suggest you try the Hockey Fins, if you get a chance - they frog kick like Jets but handle currents great without killing your legs/knees/ankles if you have to swim for a long time. They are my favorite fin for photo work.

Agree that FF hockey fins can be a good balance for many. They can do all the "standard" kicks as other "paddles" do. And they have the wonderful FF foot pockets that move the area of power transfer away from the toes. They're just a bit too stiff for my 70-year-old muscles. And the overall size is smaller than I expected.

Unfortunately they don't seem to be in current inventory.

 

[TN Traveler]

Agree that FF hockey fins can be a good balance for many. They can do all the "standard" kicks as other "paddles" do. And they have the wonderful FF foot pockets that move the area of power transfer away from the toes. They're just a bit too stiff for my 70-year-old muscles. And the overall size is smaller than I expected.

Unfortunately they don't seem to be in current inventory.

Right now I don't think there is anything in inventory except for Originals and Pros since they are in the (very slow) process of moving all the production from CA to PA.

I am 69 and I had Bob adjust the mixture to make mine just a little bit softer than the couple of dozen production models he made several years ago (I also own a pair of the original fins he made to test the Hockey Fin concept - now, you want to talk about STIFF - ouch. They make Jets feel floppy ) I think all future production will be made with the softer mix. If you can wait on them, they will probably be just what you are looking for.

Several years ago Bob made a fin that looked like the Hockey Fin to be used in Search & Rescue - it was a shorter version, so I wonder if when you say the size is smaller, if you ran into a pair of these. Mine are the same length as my Excellerators (or Extras), just a little narrower (longer than my Pros).