Force Fins vs Jetfins - tek diving and all the kicks

[TN Traveler]

I used the regular FFs in a pool session, my instructor had a few pairs. I did like the way FFs fit. I did not care for the fin's shape and size, but a straight paddle model would probably be OK. I'm not dropping half a grand to find out, though.

Just to call BS one more time (dmaziuk was sent this information but chose not to pass it on). Below is from the Force Fin Web Site - please note the last paragraph:

[h=1]Shipping and Return Policy[/h]We ship daily using primarily United Parcel Service (UPS) and the postal service, whichever offers the best price for the best service to your destination. All orders are shipped on a first placed, first onto the dock and out the door basis.

Please allow up to 2 weeks for us to give your order the individual and special attention it requires to manufacture your fins for you. We do keep a wide variety of fin colors, models and sizes on hand for immediate delivery, invariably the fins you order are those which will require our special and individual attention to be made. Play it safe, and give yourself the time for this extra attention.

All Force Fins are manufactured in the U.S.A. - some right here in Santa Barbara, CA - cast into molds sculpted by our Master Fin Designer Bob Evans hands. The fins are baked in an oven for 24 hours at temperatures that would melt other fins to allow the material to cross-link. That is what gives the fins their high rebound and resiliency, and durability. If you require your fins quickly, please contact us by email: orders@forcefin.com or by phone 805.966.9628, to confirm availability for immediate shipment.

We do guarantee your satisfaction with products purchased through ForceFin.com. If for any reason you are not satisfied, please return to us at: 27 West Anapamu Street, Suite 318, Santa Barbara, CA 93101 U.S.A., within thirty (30) days of the date of our shipping your product to you, along with your contact information, and copy of the invoice you received from us, and we will exchange or refund, at your discretion.

 

[nimoh]

Just to call BS one more time (dmaziuk was sent this information but chose not to pass it on). Below is from the Force Fin Web Site - please note the last paragraph:

Shipping and Return Policy

We ship daily using primarily United Parcel Service (UPS) and the postal service, whichever offers the best price for the best service to your destination. All orders are shipped on a first placed, first onto the dock and out the door basis.

Please allow up to 2 weeks for us to give your order the individual and special attention it requires to manufacture your fins for you. We do keep a wide variety of fin colors, models and sizes on hand for immediate delivery, invariably the fins you order are those which will require our special and individual attention to be made. Play it safe, and give yourself the time for this extra attention.

All Force Fins are manufactured in the U.S.A. - some right here in Santa Barbara, CA - cast into molds sculpted by our Master Fin Designer Bob Evans hands. The fins are baked in an oven for 24 hours at temperatures that would melt other fins to allow the material to cross-link. That is what gives the fins their high rebound and resiliency, and durability. If you require your fins quickly, please contact us by email: orders@forcefin.com or by phone 805.966.9628, to confirm availability for immediate shipment.

We do guarantee your satisfaction with products purchased through ForceFin.com. If for any reason you are not satisfied, please return to us at: 27 West Anapamu Street, Suite 318, Santa Barbara, CA 93101 U.S.A., within thirty (30) days of the date of our shipping your product to you, along with your contact information, and copy of the invoice you received from us, and we will exchange or refund, at your discretion.

so you can try them for the cost of shipping both ways?

 

[eelnoraa]

Just to call BS one more time (dmaziuk was sent this information but chose not to pass it on). Below is from the Force Fin Web Site - please note the last paragraph:

Shipping and Return Policy

We ship daily using primarily United Parcel Service (UPS) and the postal service, whichever offers the best price for the best service to your destination. All orders are shipped on a first placed, first onto the dock and out the door basis.

Please allow up to 2 weeks for us to give your order the individual and special attention it requires to manufacture your fins for you. We do keep a wide variety of fin colors, models and sizes on hand for immediate delivery, invariably the fins you order are those which will require our special and individual attention to be made. Play it safe, and give yourself the time for this extra attention.

All Force Fins are manufactured in the U.S.A. - some right here in Santa Barbara, CA - cast into molds sculpted by our Master Fin Designer Bob Evans hands. The fins are baked in an oven for 24 hours at temperatures that would melt other fins to allow the material to cross-link. That is what gives the fins their high rebound and resiliency, and durability. If you require your fins quickly, please contact us by email: orders@forcefin.com or by phone 805.966.9628, to confirm availability for immediate shipment.

We do guarantee your satisfaction with products purchased through ForceFin.com. If for any reason you are not satisfied, please return to us at: 27 West Anapamu Street, Suite 318, Santa Barbara, CA 93101 U.S.A., within thirty (30) days of the date of our shipping your product to you, along with your contact information, and copy of the invoice you received from us, and we will exchange or refund, at your discretion.

It is nice to have such a policy. One issue remain is the accessibility of FF, and the hassle of ordering online and shipping it back. If more FF can be found in LDS, it will be an entire different situation. The 2nd issue is that given most people don't dive every day, 30 days isn't a lot for a fin try out period. If FF does have an advantage, I am not sure 30 day of ownership is enough to make an average diver realize it. The last issue is the psychology trick for American culture. Americans tent to buy first and think later with generous return policy. The fact is most people ended up forget to return or hang onto the product longer than return policy. What I am trying to say is even with this 30 days policy, FF is not making it any easy for an average diver to try the fins due to logistic and just the amount of money one has to put on hold for a pair of fins. Given that a $50-$100 range fins are too bad to begin with.

 

[TN Traveler]

so you can try them for the cost of shipping both ways?

Bob has always paid for return shipping.

---------- Post added May 4th, 2015 at 04:46 PM ----------

It is nice to have such a policy. One issue remain is the accessibility of FF, and the hassle of ordering online and shipping it back. If more FF can be found in LDS, it will be an entire different situation. The 2nd issue is that given most people don't dive every day, 30 days isn't a lot for a fin try out period. If FF does have an advantage, I am not sure 30 day of ownership is enough to make an average diver realize it. The last issue is the psychology trick for American culture. Americans tent to buy first and think later with generous return policy. The fact is most people ended up forget to return or hang onto the product longer than return policy. What I am trying to say is even with this 30 days policy, FF is not making it any easy for an average diver to try the fins due to logistic and just the amount of money one has to put on hold for a pair of fins. Given that a $50-$100 range fins are too bad to begin with.

They will never be available from most LDS - since they are not "floor planned" like mass market fins. The thing to do is IF you wanted to try them - order them just before a trip - use them - and if they don't work for you - return them.

I will say this one last time - "if you are happy with your $50-$100 fins - then you probably don't need Force Fins!!!"

Will somebody please answer these questions for me -

1. Why do you use a frog kick instead of a flutter kick? What % of your dive do you spend frog kicking?
2. What % of divers even use a frog kick and why? What % of divers ever use a "helicopter turn"?
3. How many divers have you heard complain about cramping because of their fins?

A curious mind wants to know

---------- Post added May 4th, 2015 at 04:56 PM ----------

Just a suggestion for anyone who wants to try the Originals/Pros to see how the foot pocket works - buy a pair of used Force Fins on ebay for $50-$75 and use them a couple of times. If you like the way they work, then consider buying a pair of higher end fins - if you need them. If not - sell them back on ebay - they always seem to sell. That's how I started.

 

[nimoh]

Bob has always paid for return shipping.

Will somebody please answer these questions for me -

1. Why do you use a frog kick instead of a flutter kick? What % of your dive do you spend frog kicking?
2. What % of divers even use a frog kick and why? What % of divers ever use a "helicopter turn"?
3. How many divers have you heard complain about cramping because of their fins?

A curious mind wants to know

1. I find a frog kick somewhat effortless since for the most part I am doing a modified frog kick moving only my ankles. For a little more speed I do a full frog kick and take a long glide in between. However, the primary reason is that it directs the water back and up (rather than down) reducing silting. I spend about 90% of my dives doing a frog kick and about 10% doing a modified flutter that is useful when going through tight spaces where there isn't enough lateral room to extend my fins out to do a frog kick.

2. I can't speak for all divers, I can only speak for myself and divers that I dive with so roughly 90%/80% and for the same reasons given above (although for other cave divers I dive with it would be 100%/100%)

3. 0

 

[TN Traveler]

1. I find a frog kick somewhat effortless since for the most part I am doing a modified frog kick moving only my ankles. For a little more speed I do a full frog kick and take a long glide in between. However, the primary reason is that it directs the water back and up (rather than down) reducing silting. I spend about 90% of my dives doing a frog kick and about 10% doing a modified flutter that is useful when going through tight spaces where there isn't enough lateral room to extend my fins out to do a frog kick.

2. I can't speak for all divers, I can only speak for myself and divers that I dive with so roughly 90%/80% and for the same reasons given above (although for other cave divers I dive with it would be 100%/100%)

3. 0

I can appreciate your approach since it seems you are primarily into diving caves and probably wrecks.

But what % of all the divers out there are into cave/wreck diving? And what % of the non-cave/wreck divers use a frog kick more than 20% of the time (assuming you do some open water diving)?

 

[djtimmy77]

1. Why do you use a frog kick instead of a flutter kick? What % of your dive do you spend frog kicking?
2. What % of divers even use a frog kick and why? What % of divers ever use a "helicopter turn"?
3. How many divers have you heard complain about cramping because of their fins?

Late to the party, but to join in I will answer your questions...

1) Less effort, less silt. I spend 95-100% of my dive frog kicking. Shallow no-current dives, drift dives, wreck dives. No cave diving for me. I flutter occasionally if I want to go upcurrent or get somewhere more quickly than usual.
2) most experienced divers I know (>90%) and dive with use the frog kick almost all of the time. Most photographers I know use the helicopter turn (>90%)
3) never because of fins, occasionally because they are cold (and/or dehydrated)

I prefer mass-produced injection molded fins. Better process control due to the nature of manufacturing, and more cost effective. Country of origin doesn't really matter to fin performance.

What this thread really could have used was Dan Volker to chime in and help out TN Traveler.

 

[Dhboner]

- Frog kick is the least "invasive" kick and promotes proper horizontal trim
- Frog kick 100% of the time
- Helicopter turn every time I need to turn
- Never had foot cramping in 40 years of diving.

 

[scubadada]

What an interesting thread, I participated actively at a earlier stage but lost track of it. You have to give TN Traveler a lot of credit for being both persistent and resilient. As he reminds us constantly, he is a chemical engineer with experience in product manufacture. He is just trying to educate us, the ignorant masses, as to the benefits of FF. As a scientist/physician, I'm unable to appreciate the complex issues in evaluating fin performance. This is a religious discussion, data and objective comparisons do not apply. Where is Dan when TN Traveler could use his assistance?

 

[dmaziuk]

so you can try them for the cost of shipping both ways?

You can try them for the cost of shipping one way twice: once to try them on and get the size right and then to actually try them in the water. But you only have 30 days for it all.

As for BS: 30 days return policy is pretty unexceptional. Amazon has it, too, as well as one-way free shipping if you pay them enough. So: meh.