Ethics of diving despite contraindications

[SDAnderson]

Stephen, I seem to have missed where she advocated lying or cheating.

Fair point, and with apologies to Catherine, I seem to have conflated several posts and attributed words to her that she didn't say.

As someone who has been in the unfortunate position of diving with people who have lied about their medical status and seen, first hand, some of the consequences that can attend to that dishonesty, I'm sensitive to the issue. Perhaps a little over-sensitive.

Life is, indeed, a fatal condition but that doesn't justify a fatalistic attitude. I don't disagree with those who think we've become a little too risk-averse however I can't accept putting others unknowingly at risk for something so insignificant...yes, insignificant...as diving. Hopefully, we all can agree that lying on a medical statement constitutes an egregious violation of trust.

I return you now to the regularly scheduled digression...

 

[Cacia]

also...by not admitting on the medical waiver to a condition, you have relieved the operator of liability, "taken full resposibility" for whatever happens to you. Are you all ready to give up your DL's once you have had a heart attack? Would have far more impact, risk wise, in the real world.

I was not saying that you HAVE to dive with someone who looks unfit...I was saying that IF you do, it's way more likely that you will be with someone who has a heart attack #1 than diving with someone who arrests because of a hidden medical condition.

I don't need statistics to know that...it is really common sense. Try looking at it this way: What are THE BIG ONES that get us? car accidents, Heart attacks, toddlers in pools, etc. Now think about how these usually happen. Focus your attention there....drunk drivers, obesity and poor aerobic fitness and think how you can impact the big ones. Worrying about and making more rules about these other situations just is a waste of time and not logical use of your efforts.

A little like worrying that your kids will be abducted and sexually tortured but not worrying about the fact that they are eating at McDonald's every day and sitting on the couch.

Worrying about sharks and not worring about getting hit by a boat...

People don't really operate with realistic ideas about what is likely to kill us. I am just saying, that before you get all crazy about how someone else impacts your safety...you could probably just live and let live and think of a hundred other ways to be safer in your own life today, more than complaining about someone with an illness who has chosen to "go for it".

When you realize how many people drown in the bathtub or are killed by their toasters, you might feel differently about needing to "stop the madness" of some diver with an undisclosed medical condition.

we all can agree that lying on a medical statement constitutes an egregious violation of trust

No, you have no business asking me in the first place unless you and the boat captain are prepared to do the same. It is a two way street at the very least.
How about if you smoke, you can't even BE an instructor. See?, you can't draw the line because it is a never ending situation of judging others. I am saying that "sweeping around your own back door" will yield more benefits towards your safety in a way that actually has measurable impact.
This is really dillusional..and I am not trying to be insulting. It is a inaccurate way to think and live. You don't have your eye on the ball...you don't even acknowledge what the ball is. And that scares me because this is the thinking that creates legislation, policies, regulation in America.

 

[Midnight Star]

I am NOT willing to do CPR on the water, or even on the boat, for that matter without a bag valve mask, or a one way mask

I completely understand this ... that's why i'm planning on getting a one way respiration mask to take with me when I go diving. I'll let them know where it is also, just in case it's me on the receiving end.

-----

Mike.

 

[rjack321]

Informed consent assumes you have some knowledge of the problem/illness. In reality, you probably don't. So I would need to 1) disclose the problem and 2) discuss its ramifications in an objective way.

I would have gone diving with the terminal brain cancer patient Rick mentioned earlier. Not to 110ft, but I would have taken them diving. I would take them diving until they couldn't carry the tank, and if necessary I'd have gotten them a lighter tank and gone somemore.

 

[Cacia]

I am NOT willing to do CPR on the water, or even on the boat, for that matter without a bag valve mask, or a one way mask

that is really alarmist....you think you will get AIDS, or what? Do you share air?
how often are you expecting this to happen, exactly?

those masks are like the life jacket they give you on the plane flying over the Atlantic...if it makes you feel better....

 

[sardiver]

Rick, the only part I don't get is that you finished a dive with an OOA diver as opposed to splitting your team and aborting with the OOA.
Good save either way!!

I haven't read the thread you're referring to, but here is my related story.

Two divers who found me on the web met up with my team of three to dive a train wreck at 110'. I had never dived with them before, but both claimed the experience and skills necessary to do these dives. We planned to dive together, but as two seperate teams - their team of two, and our team of three.

I did the briefing, and stressed that we would do no "spontaneous solo" diving - meaning, if one member of a team thumbed, all members of that team ended the dive.

At 90', I noticed that one of the new divers was missing. I gave the where's-your-buddy? sign, and he pointed back to shore. I signaled him to buddy with me.

Near the end of the dive, he swam over signaling OOA (the only real OOA I've ever had), and he breathed from my LH for the remainder of the dive. He was really out -all the way.

How does this relate to the thread? His buddy called the dive because, he was dying of terminal brain cancer and was too sick to handle the dive, even though he had skipped his chemotherapy to try to be healthy enough to make it. They never mentioned it to us. They kept it secret because they didn't want us to refuse to take him on the dive. By doing this, they risked the other divers lives.

 

[Walter]

Rick, the only part I don't get is that you finished a dive with an OOA diver as opposed to splitting your team and aborting with the OOA.
Good save either way!!

He didn't say he continued the dive, he said he finished it. You assumed he finished it a while later. I assumed he finished it as quickly as it was safe to do so.

 

[laurelgsc]

I am not sure why people like fisherdvm even bother to get FA/CPR certified. The whole idea is so that you can help other people. I hope your insta-buddies don't have the same attitude for your sake. And talking about disclosure you should disclose to your buddies that you are unwilling to help them out in an emergency because they might have some disease that will rub off on you. I hope that if you or someone in your family ever needs care that someone is there to give it to them.

 

[TexasZR2]

Very interesting reading on the board these days.....must be getting cold outside and people don't have anything to do.

As to the original question, yes, I think it is ethical to dive with a known condition. I believe it is my right to die how I want to die. I take full responsibility for the risks.

However, as to the questoin that wasn't asked, but everyone has honed in on, I don't think it is ethical to withhold information from my dive buddies that could possibly affect them or the dive. I liken it to misrepresenting your qualifications when certain abilities are necessary for a certain dive. If my companions don't have all the facts, they could be led to make a bad decision concerning whether to make the dive or not.

Now, having said all that, I have to lie on every disclosure form I fill out with every dive op. Why? I am almost 40, I run, I lift weights, and am generally in good shape. However, I inherited hypertension from both parents and have been on medication to control it since I was 28. After I spend several hundred or more of my hard earned bucks to go on vacation, I don't want to run the risk of someone who thinks they know more than me and my doctor telling me I can't dive. Is this right? Well, it's right for me.

Don't take life too seriously - it's not permanent.....

 

[Web Monkey]

Now, having said all that, I have to lie on every disclosure form I fill out with every dive op. Why? I am almost 40, I run, I lift weights, and am generally in good shape. However, I inherited hypertension from both parents and have been on medication to control it since I was 28. After I spend several hundred or more of my hard earned bucks to go on vacation, I don't want to run the risk of someone who thinks they know more than me and my doctor telling me I can't dive. Is this right? Well, it's right for me.

No kidding. The questions are bogus because the DMs and captains aren't qualified to interpert the answers.

Is someone who takes BP meds and has a pressure of 118/80 a worse risk than somone who doesn't take anything and has 145/100? Not in my book.

I'm way more worried about the people who don't take meds and need them, than the people who do take them and have everything under control.

Terry