Ethics of diving despite contraindications

[Rick Inman]

He didn't say he continued the dive, he said he finished it. You assumed he finished it a while later. I assumed he finished it as quickly as it was safe to do so.

Yup. We were doing our slow return to shore and just continued to do so.

 

[sharkbaitDAN]

let's see ...you miffed or me getting to live a life worth living...hmmm.

No, I'm miffed at your having lied to me and put me in a situation where I have to put my own neck on the line.

There is no inherent question of ethics in diving with a contraindication. If you dive alone, there can be no ethical question because ethicas is about relationships between people. If you cannot possibly affect me, I really don't care whether you dive or not. If you can affect me, then I deserve to know what I am getting myself into.

As to consent running both ways, this is simly not true. If I am your instructor you have no need to know my medical history because people with more knowledge have cleared me. As I stated, show me the doctor's note and the medical question is over. Lie to me, and I will refuse to go diving with you because you lied. If I can't trust you to tell the truth, how could I possibly be expected to trust you would do the right thing if something goes wrong? Poor judgment above the water will lead to poor judgment below, and I think lying about potential medical problems is an indicator of poor judgment, but not the only indicator, and not always. I need to know about you so that I can make an informed decision whether I want to manage additional risk that may be associated with a medical condition.

Do not assume that my reasons to dive with you or not have anything to do with a medical contraindication. I understand the relatively low risk in diving, and am willing to accept a slightly higher risk if you are honest with me. I am not willing to take on more risk when I don't know there is an additional risk.

 

[Walter]

No, I'm miffed at your having lied to me and put me in a situation where I have to put my own neck on the line.

Looks to me that you've invented a lie that does not exist.

 

[Rick Inman]

I guess the line, "My life is my own to live as I feel fit," is where I disagree. I am responsible for stewarding my life, but it isn't mine alone, without effect on anyone else. It is mine and my wife's and my children's and my friends and those who share with me the effects of it. I hope that what I do in life has more meaning that just what makes me feel good. I have some responsibility outside of just what I selfishly want.

You want to go diving and be unsafe or kill yourself regardless of the effects on the people in your life, go for it. But if you dive with me, I would ask that you don't lie or deceive me about anything.

 

[Midnight Star]

If I am your instructor you have no need to know my medical history because people with more knowledge have cleared me.

Not to get into the middle of a mud-slinging contest, but here's where I see a potential problem ... why should it work, or be allowed for the instructor, but no one else? Maybe their doctors (diving and otherwise) have also cleared them. If they have, why then would an instructor say otherwise? Establishment of authority for what reason? I respect those that respect me.

Now for me, i'd like to know the medical condition of my Instructor (and or others in the excursion), just in case - maximize available resources and combined intelligence; being an instructor doesn't give someone a liscense (or exclusion by title) to never make a mistake, or have their medical condition not "flare up" in the middle of a serious dive. Why should it be any different for them? Are we talking about social classes within the diving community? Where some are exempt from the very rules they enforce? That's not setting a very good example in my opinion. Besides, I wouldnt think any less of them for telling me, nor would I think it would disqualify them from being an instructor; but in the end, shouldn't that be my decision, since it's my life? Does their inability to cope with a potential embarrasing situation outweigh my right to decide if they're fit enough to lead me into a cave during my training run?

I think all cards should be on the table. That way, I can quickly go through some scenarios in my mind just before the dive, preparing the way for a potential problem in more ways than just one; not reactive, but proactive. That would be impossible without advanced knowledge of something.

-----

Mike.

 

[Walter]

I guess the line, "My life is my own to live as I feel fit," is where I disagree. I am responsible for stewarding my life, but it isn't mine alone, without effect on anyone else. It is mine and my wife's and my children's and my friends and those who share with me the effects of it. I hope that what I do in life has more meaning that just what makes me feel good. I have some responsibility outside of just what I selfishly want.

You want to go diving and be unsafe or kill yourself regardless of the effects on the people in your life, go for it. But if you dive with me, I would ask that you don't lie or deceive me about anything.

Luckily, I don't have any contraindications, but if I did - I'm not married and my kids are now adults. No one depends on me to support them. Will my death affect others? Sure, but it's still mine. If my kids were still young or I were still married, I'd agree with you.

 

[Cacia]

If I am your instructor you have no need to know my medical history because people with more knowledge have cleared me.

do you know how many instructors I have known that are train wrecks?

what planet are you on? We have guys here living in vans that have not been to a doctor in twenty years. I should take their pictures by their "homes" in the lot outside the bar just to make a point...but it would not be nice.

But if you dive with me, I would ask that you don't lie or deceive me about anything.

I think it is reasonable for you to request that.

Maybe you need to know your buddies better in order to be true to your convictions as opposed to expecting others to fit your expectations. Because I can gaurantee you, and I am sure you realize this...that is not a good bet. Rick..if you feel that way just dive with people you have an understanding with. But if you expect it to be a universal standard *because* of your deal with your family, you will be counting on something not reliable. You can easily say no. See, I think you made the mistake by accepting them, given your very high standards. You are the one responsible for the situations you put yourself in.

Perfect example. I, for example don't take people who think in terms of "who is liable" out on our boat. I feel pretty comfortable with our dive partners, that they are not going to sue me for getting hit by a prop in a rolling sea, while climbing on.
I scrutinize people's actions before including them, regarding their world view on responsibility. Solo divers are ideal candidates (for me, on the boat) because I know they have already made the choice that they are responsible for themselves. Military guys are good, Japanese and certain other nationalities hardly ever sue...and so on. Yes, I profile a bit....because in the end, I am responsible for what happens to me and I have the most control over that. We can all dive together, and help each other. But if they think in terms of "who is liable" for mistakes that are made out there...then they need to go commercial. It is MY responsibility not to take someone that talks in a way that puts up a big red flag. People show you who they are.

If you have exacting standards then it is your responsibility to your family to apply the litmus test.

I am pretty sure Lynne has a sympatico with someone before sticking them on her horse.

No..not mud slinging, just an honest debate.

 

[Walter]

do you know how many instructors I have known that are train wrecks?

what planet are you on? We have guys here living in vans that have not been to a doctor in twenty years. I should take their pictures by their "homes" in the lot outside the bar just to make a point...but it would not be nice.

Oh, at first I thought you were referring to their diving skills.....

 

[SubMariner]

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[fisherdvm]

I think this is a silly discussion. If you don't want to save someone's life, then don't.... No body asked you to risk your life for no one. If you are unfortunate enough to be matched with a diving buddy who lied to you, too bad, better bring along your own buddy the next trip.

As far as I am concern, there is greater risk encountered everyday than worrying about someone on my dive boats who didn't tell me or their buddy of their medical condition.

Unless they are going to blow up and sink the ship, dive on buddy!! I don't care what medical condition you have. I'd like more excitement in my dive trips.

For those who took Rescue Diver, ACLS, ATLS, and earned the medic certificate... Do as you please, because this doctor ain't going risk his life trying to rescue someone else in trouble on the water.... Get him on the boat, and I still would defer to the dive boat captain.... Unless he wanted me to help.

Altruism will get the best of me though, and I likely will help anyone whom I could help. And we'll go on with life.