Ethics of diving despite contraindications

[sharkbaitDAN]

First off, I do think that people who want to dive should be allowed to dive if they are able to do so. Second, if there is some medical contraindication, a doctor hasn't cleared you, and you don't tell me, I'm gonna be a little miffed if something goes wrong.

Nobody really has to help anybody else, people do however choose to . . .
In my experience, people help others because they feel good being able to.

That is simply not the case if you are a professional. I have a duty to make every reasonable effort to make sure someone gets back on the boat (or shore) alive. Anything less than that effort makes me potentially liable for any injury that occurs. This will make me really angry because I hate torts. If a doctor says you can dive, show me the note and I won't worry about letting you dive. I will know what the potential problem is, and I will keep an eye out for it. I've done that many times.

Just like anyone has a right to dive, I have a right to make an informed decision as to whether I want to dive with you. Since I'm in law school and us law students love bright-line rules, I'll make one here: If there is a potential medical problem, get a doctor to clear you. Then, there will be no medical issue on my end because I'm going to assume that the doctor is competent and knows more than me about the issue in general and your case in specific.

 

[Cacia]

I'm gonna be a little miffed if something goes wrong.

let's see ...you miffed or me getting to live a life worth living...hmmm.

 

[RJP]

I don't understand how as much as you guys practice with long hoses why all your lives were at risk, at recreational depths....I really don't.

Catherine, you are over-reacting more than just a tad, I think.

We're not talking about medical privacy here, we're talking about people willfully with-holding pertinent information. Information that any reasonable person would deserve to know in order to determine whether or not to dive with you.

You cannot decide how much risk I am willing to take.

I am not saying I wouldn't dive with any of the people mentioned. I'm saying that to ensure that both of us minimize our risk it is incumbent upon someone with a known disabillity or potential limitatation to reveal that to a potential dive buddy.

Think of it as "informed consent" if you will.

 

[MSilvia]

We're not talking about medical privacy here, we're talking about people willfully with-holding pertinent information. Information that any reasonable person would deserve to know in order to determine whether or not to dive with you.

Actually, no. If you read the first post, we're talking about the ethics of diving with known medical contraindications. That they may be undisclosed is secondary to the main topic. The question was not, "Is it ethical to withhold information about medical contraindications from others?", but instead, "Is it ethical to dive with medical contraindications?"

If I tell you and the boat captain all about my potentially disasterous medical condition, you agree to that risk, and we go diving, is that ethical? Even if it means my family has no body to bury, the other divers on the boat are disturbed by my drowning, and it puts rescuers at risk?

To put it differently, is it ethical to take great risks for recreation?

 

[fisherdvm]

Ego is what get us our "Rescue diver" cert, Ego is what get alot of us to be scuba instructors, Ego is what get us to go out of the way to save lives.

Ego is why I am a physician.

Ego is why ambulance medics do what they do.

Ego is why you joined the marines, and why I joined the Army.

We do what we do, to save lives, partly because of ego.

Yes it is stupid for someone to drive drunk.... But we still rescue him.

Yes it is stupid for a diver to hit the water not knowing what his sugar is.... But we still rescue him.

I and thousands of others will put their life on the line to protect stupid people from dying. And we will continue to do so.... Partly because of ego, and partly because of altruism.

However, I can not fault a diver for wanting to do one last dive before he dies .... You don't have to rescue him. Because of the risk of lawsuits, many doctors and nurses routinely bypass accident victims on the road in high risk cities and states for lawsuits..... These are folks who would risk their lives for others, but not willing to risk their livelyhood because of lawyers.

In the sameway, you do not need to risk your life to save an idiot who is drowning in the water. Just as you can't stop a teenager from driving and text messaging, a driver from driving drunk, or a person with low IQ from backing up their car on the freeway....

There are enough risks to manage in daily life, not to worry about a diver risking his life because YOU don't think he should dive.

 

[SDAnderson]

I don't understand how as much as you guys practice with long hoses why all your lives were at risk, at recreational depths....I really don't.

Are you going to share air with someone who looks unfit? Because you are statisically more likely to be with someone in poor CV condition who has a first heart attack than with someone who is hiding a medical condition.

I don't know where you got your statistics from but would you deny me the right to decide not to dive with someone who looks unfit? Am I required to dive with the 400lb middle-aged male who is struggling to breathe just from climbing over the gunwale onto the boat? Does your right to dive outweigh (sorry, bad pun) my right to choose whom I dive with?

I really cannot believe these attitudes. Doctors and nurses risk exposure to all kinds of things.. the military fights for everyone else...the lifeguards at the beach risk their lives for your silly teenagers, almost everybody in society has some risk for YOU---even the electrician who is working on your house. And you all are so worried that some poor guy with cancer and wants to dive is going to ..inconvenience you with a very nominal amount of risk? Is it okay to hike? because I COULD fall down a ravine and need a helicopter.

It seems to me that you've missed something here: professionals (doctors, nurses, plumbers, lifeguards) all are performing a job for which they have been specifically trained and for which they are being paid. They are, to as great an extent as possible, made aware of the risks they may encounter as part of their duties and a part of the money they receive is compensation for that risk. They have voluntarily chosen to assume the risks inherent in their duties. In contrast, Joe Diver gets on a charter boat and is not only not getting paid, he's actually paying for the service. It can't be assumed that he has the training to handle an emergency (he may have some level of rescue training but it's also possible that he's never taken a first aid course). By lying on your medical statement, aren't you cheating him of his ability to make an informed decision about the level of risk he is accepting?

Guess you don't think Matt should dive either? Personally, I don't get it. Being this risk aversive is so unrealistic in the scope of life. I live in fear of the regulation that this distorted thinking could bring. Do you realize how much more likely you are to be killed in a car accident, or from the flu? This really should not even be on your radar.....in my opinion.

Whatever anyone thinks about Matt's situation, the fact of the matter is that he and everyone who is diving with him has been given the information that allows them to make an informed decision before they assume the risk. I don't know what his medical statement says but I'm confident that he hasn't lied about his condition.

The relative risks associated with diving and driving a car or breathing the air in an airport terminal aren't relevant to the discussion. Forgive me for saying that, considering your position on honesty, I'm reminded of of the adage that figure lie and liars figure.

It reminds me of the school system that had all the little kids scared to death of the killer bees in California. I apologize..it makes me nuts, and a zealot for medical privacy.

We aren't discussing taking away your right to privacy - what we're discussing is basic honesty. You have the right to refuse to answer the medical questions and even to suggest to the person who is asking them that s/he perform a medically impossible act of self-procreation. You may not get to go diving after you exercise your right but freedoms tend to have a price.

The real question is whether or not you have the right to lie and cheat to achieve your goal of diving. Remember, we aren't talking about stealing a loaf of bread so that you can eat, we're talking about scuba diving: a relatively unimportant and completely discretionary leisure activity. Lying isn't a slippery slope - it's a rocky cliff. If you don't approve of the medical questions, lying only defers the problem and compromises your integrity. That's even more important to me than your health. Honestly.

 

[Midnight Star]

If this was going to be that persons last dive, and they were going to die in the water. I'd be honored to go down with them, and spend with them, their last few hours coming to peace with themselves. Would I want them to die? No. Do I look forward to bringing them back up? No. But then again, it isn't always about me. Since the condition is known, and not something that's pulled over my eyes, I can readily discuss what I need to do and know with the person in question. Whether is the right thing to do or no, depends on the person, and the chance to do the right thing when it really makes a difference comes ever so rarely. Would I want to completely endanger myself to give them their last dive? No. Would I be reckless, while they were diving, trying to help them achieve their final goal? Of course not. Would I possilby have to answer a ton of questions, to the authorities, after the body is brought up? Very likely. But again, it never really was about me.

-----

Mike.

 

[fisherdvm]

As a "single" lone diver, I am always matched with a buddy I don't know much about. I pretty much accept the fact that I am essentially a "solo" diver.

I put my trust only on my own skill, my equipment, and God's hand.

If my buddy is in trouble, the only thing I could do is share air. If he dies, tough luck.... I am NOT willing to do CPR on the water, or even on the boat, for that matter without a bag valve mask, or a one way mask.

 

[Walter]

If I attempt a rescue, it's because I choose to attempt a rescue. If that puts me at risk, then I made that choice. It was not forced on me. I tend to agree with Catherine. Stephen, I seem to have missed where she advocated lying or cheating.

 

[Charlie99]

... his right to not disclose a potential problem stops at my right to choose.

That's a pretty good statement of the problem.

There's a limit to how detailed of dive history and medical history we need to provide. There is an ethical limit to the level of risk someone can expose an unwitting buddy or dive op by lack of full disclosure.

The right balance is not always clearcut.