Ethics of diving despite contraindications

[Henryville]

A discussion got started in another thread on what I would characterize as the ethics of diving with know (and possibly undisclosed) medical contraindications.

Opinions being what they are, in my view it is wrong to dive with these conditions. While it might be conceptually desirable to "pass on while doing what one loves," applying this to diving results in negative consequences for those other than the diver:

- loved ones and friends who may not have a body to bury
- dive buddies who become stressed or worse trying to accomplish a rescue
- captains and crew who feel a duty of care without having the full facts prior to accepting this duty (or who may explicitly refuse such duty if they had the facts)
- witnesses who may be traumatized by seeing someone die while pursuing a recreational pass time.
- recovery divers who run a risk doing so
- other divers who may be subject to limited access or increased oversight (or even regulation) because diving is perceived as more dangerous than it actually is

Because of these potentially negative consequences for others, I think it is ethically wrong to dive while under a medical condition that is broadly accepted as an absolute contraindication to diving.

Interested to hear other perspectives.

 

[Cacia]

- loved ones and friends who may not have a body to bury
- dive buddies who become stressed or worse trying to accomplish a rescue
- captains and crew who feel a duty of care without having the full facts prior to accepting this duty (or who may explicitly refuse such duty if they had the facts)
- witnesses who may be traumatized by seeing someone die while pursuing a recreational pass time.
- recovery divers who run a risk doing so
- other divers who may be subject to limited access or increased oversight (or even regulation) because diving is perceived as more dangerous than it actually is

Because of these potentially negative consequences for others

Not everyone thinks the affects are negative, even if uncomfortable in the short run.

The staff gained valuable experience and profiency.

The man was choosing what he wanted to do with the life he had remaining.

Not everyone cares about having a body to bury. (I, and most of my family don't either) We DO however want to be fulfilled in life, and place this very high in our priorities.

The more divers and people in general are exposed to reality, the better they cope with life (my opinion). Death is reality...people that are permanently damaged are usually those who have no exposure at all and then see something truly horrific and traumatic all in one huge dose. An elderly man having a heart attack just is not on that scale. (as opposed to throwing yourself in front of a train in front of your kids) Better to see some outcomes and be a more grounded person, stronger for your experience.

The victim's family may be comforted by the fact that he/she was enjoying himself up to the end.

And then...the age old question...who will decide where the line is drawn?


Diving is an activity (unlike driving an auto in your 80's) where you really are not endangering others in any appreciatable scale, IMO. If a person is on a dive geared for certified divers, they can be responsible for babysitting themselves for the time it takes to get someone out of the water.

 

[MSilvia]

I think it's stupid and reckless, which is plenty of reason not to do something. Wrongness doesn't come into play unless someone decides that doing stupid, reckless things is acceptable. At that point, I don't want anything to do with their diving regardless of their ethics.

As Catherine said, witnessing tragic errors can be an important learning experience. I was on a dive trip where someone made a poor decision and died. Instead of being traumatized, I was inspired to get rescue training. The experience reenforced the importance of prudence.

I am substantially less than concerned with how traumatized spectators are by my eventual demise. Life's risky. If you don't like it, don't participate.

My family may or may not have a body when I go. That has never been a factor in my decision making, and likely never will be. I want to be buried at sea anyhow... dieing there just makes it a cheaper funeral, and spares my remains the humiliation of enbalming.

As for rescue divers, I appreciate what they do, and expect them to undertake only reasonable risks if the recovery of my remains is ever required. That's the job. God willing I won't ever require their services, but making recovery jobs easier is not at the forefront of my ethical concerns.

 

[fisherdvm]

We let teenagers drive cars with cell phones text messaging. Average IQ of a typical driver is less than 60. We let people with known seizure risk drives on the road (it is almost impossible to withhold their license). When you drive in Mexico, most of the folks have never heard of driver's training. Hundreds kill themselves climbing mountains each years......

Trying to force everyone with medical conditions from diving is trying to create an exclusive club for a few elite "macho" divers....

I can see the risk management aspect of diver certifying organisations, diving facilities, and diving instructors in preventing any divers with "admitted" medical conditions from diving.

But once a certificate is given, how many of you "scuba instructors" are going to give up your C card because of newly diagnosed asthma, heart condition, palpitation, diabetes, depression, etc... Very few of you - my guess.

In a profession that the lives of hundreds are dependent on your hand and brain - commercial airline pilots - there are very restrictive requirements.

However, recreational divers do not risk the lives of others - rarely. They essentially risk their own live - most of the time.

If a person with known congestive heart failure and history of atrial fibrillation wants to dive.... You can't stop him. I'd just hate to be his diving buddy when the ticker decided to stop.

 

[Rick Inman]

I haven't read the thread you're referring to, but here is my related story.

Two divers who found me on the web met up with my team of three to dive a train wreck at 110'. I had never dived with them before, but both claimed the experience and skills necessary to do these dives. We planned to dive together, but as two seperate teams - their team of two, and our team of three.

I did the briefing, and stressed that we would do no "spontaneous solo" diving - meaning, if one member of a team thumbed, all members of that team ended the dive.

At 90', I noticed that one of the new divers was missing. I gave the where's-your-buddy? sign, and he pointed back to shore. I signaled him to buddy with me.

Near the end of the dive, he swam over signaling OOA (the only real OOA I've ever had), and he breathed from my LH for the remainder of the dive. He was really out -all the way.

How does this relate to the thread? His buddy called the dive because, he was dying of terminal brain cancer and was too sick to handle the dive, even though he had skipped his chemotherapy to try to be healthy enough to make it. They never mentioned it to us. They kept it secret because they didn't want us to refuse to take him on the dive. By doing this, they risked the other divers lives.

 

[Charlie99]

Would you have done the dive with him had you known about his illness? Too often, divers with medical conditions face the choice of either lying or not diving.

I've seen a diver get bounced from a boat because she had asthma, even though it was under control and she had forms from a dive doctor clearing her for diving. Had she not checked the box on the release, she would have gone diving.

In another case, during a quick visual of my insta-buddy's gear I noticed a pouch clipped to his left chest D-ring. "That's my glucose" he explained. "I'm diabetic". It turns out that the Captain knew of his condition, knew to meet him on the swim platform with a sugary soft drink if he aborted early, and accepted the extra risk. If he hadn't found a boat that would let him dive, he probably would have just lied on the release forms. He ended up being a great buddy, even though it was a little weird watching him shoot up with insulin in the parking lot before we went off to a restaurant for a post-dive lunch. He figured that he had his diabetes under control (and purposefully let his blood sugar go a bit high pre-dive) and didn't feel obligated to discuss it with his buddies.

I'm all for full disclosure and knowing acceptance of risk by the diver with a medical condition, any boat and crew involved, and the divers buddies. Unfortunately, in this society rather prone to litigation and somwhat risk adverse, that doesn't happen very often.

 

[RJP]

However, recreational divers do not risk the lives of others - rarely. They essentially risk their own live - most of the time.

That's just naive, unless they are diving completely solo or unless they tell me and every other diver around up front that if they are in trouble we are under no circumstances to try to come to their aid.

As a rescue diver, if you are in trouble I'm going to attempt to come to your aid, within the scope of my training and abilities. That may put me at risk. Yes, I will do things to minimize that risk up to and including letting you drown if I need to in order to protect myself.

That said, if I enter the water to save someone who shouldn't have been in the water in the first place THEY have put me at risk in a very real way.

 

[alcina]

Would you have done the dive with him had you known about his illness?

Maybe, maybe not. But his right to not disclose a potential problem stops at my right to choose.

 

[Cacia]

By doing this, they risked the other divers lives.

I don't understand how as much as you guys practice with long hoses why all your lives were at risk, at recreational depths....I really don't.

Are you going to share air with someone who looks unfit? Because you are statisically more likely to be with someone in poor CV condition who has a first heart attack than with someone who is hiding a medical condition.

That said, if I enter the water to save someone who shouldn't have been in the water in the first place THEY have put me at risk in a very real way.

I really cannot believe these attitudes. Doctors and nurses risk exposure to all kinds of things.. the military fights for everyone else...the lifeguards at the beach risk their lives for your silly teenagers, almost everybody in society has some risk for YOU---even the electrician who is working on your house. And you all are so worried that some poor guy with cancer and wants to dive is going to ..inconvenience you with a very nominal amount of risk? Is it okay to hike? because I COULD fall down a ravine and need a helicopter.

Guess you don't think Matt should dive either? Personally, I don't get it. Being this risk aversive is so unrealistic in the scope of life. I live in fear of the regulation that this distorted thinking could bring. Do you realize how much more likely you are to be killed in a car accident, or from the flu? This really should not even be on your radar.....in my opinion.

It reminds me of the school system that had all the little kids scared to death of the killer bees in California. I apologize..it makes me nuts, and a zealot for medical privacy.

 

[redrover]

Heartily agree with what Catherine said and several others.
I think:
Every human has the right to make personal choices to do or not do things including; to dive with, not to dive with, dive or not to dive.
If someone is worried about endangering themselves to help another they can cleanly dive Solo or, restrict themselves to other perfect specimens (certified as such preferably by a minimum of three independent sources) as companions.
Nobody really has to help anybody else, people do however choose to. For example: if your child does what he’s told not to (against advise) and falls in the fireplace; do you truly pull them out because you are obligated as a responsible adult (parent) and if someone else is watching you may be found criminally negligent, or because you choose to? If being of assistance is uncomfortable people can simply look away and claim ignorant bliss if questioned. Or, as Nancy said it so well, just say, “No.”
In my experience, people help others because they feel good being able to. Many if not most feel what goes around, comes around knowing someday they may need a hand or make a mistake or have an accident. My favorite Peanuts cartoon is Lucy proudly proclaiming, “I’m never wrong.” Linus I think it was looks at her blankly and she reconsiders, “I thought I did once, but I was mistaken.”
Like most things there are consequences for actions in diving. Spouse thinks you’re gonna die, doesn’t want you to die, ergo doesn’t want you to dive, whata ya gonna do? It bothers me to hear someone say “My wife, mother, child, dog, whatever, won’t let me do… something.” Sounds to me like a pretty lame excuse for not doing something you really don’t want to do. Perhaps it’s a deal breaker and you loose the spouse. Perhaps you choose the spouse is more important to you and choose to not dive. Perhaps you work out compromises that each can live with.
If anybody thinks there is some place on this planet where there is no violence, pain, human waste, trauma, despair, agony, unpleasantness, or something that can leave a scar of some sort they are delusional. Or miraculously never watched a news program, had a family member serve in the armed forces, driven in a car, been to a doctor or seen a heavy rain thrash the flowers. If you don’t want to get blown away in a hurricane, don’t be where hurricanes can occur. If you don’t want to see a dive rescue, don’t be where one could take place and let others who feel the gain is worth the risk have your place.
I don’t get this claim to be forced to risk life and limb story. If you put a gun to my head and say dive with me or else, I still choose my action. Probably the only thing you force me to do is make a choice I’d rather not.
The bulk of my adult life, I risked my life to assist humans wedged in what was most commonly acts of stupidity, recklessness, ignorance or downright attempt to die. As a volunteer or as a professional I never felt obligated, ever, to risk my life. Recognizing what I could do to help and asking myself, “Do I want to?”, consciously I chose to each and every time to do what I wanted to.
And Henriville, I think it is your ethics that are questionable and I’ll defend your right to choose them.