Diver Training: How much is enough?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would like to see for once at a dive site all of the divers swimming in a horizontal position instead of vertical.

It appears to be normal at many places where there is a large teaching school, the majority of divers are all seen to be swimming in a vertical position with no buoyancy control and underwater sandstorms all over the place.

IMHO these divers are processed instead of being taught the basic skills and demonstrate that they can apply them properly before being certified.

When you are taught to descend vertically, ascend vertically, and do all your OW skills vertically (albeit, while kneeling), then it's to be expected that divers will assume that orientation while diving.

We, as humans, spend virtually our entire waking existence in the vertical orientation. It's what we're comfortable with. When we go underwater, we'll do what's comfortable ... whether or not it's what we know we should be doing.

This is why it's so important to train divers in a horizontal orientation ... in other words, while hovering. People tend to do best what they learned first ... training divers while kneeling on the bottom only imprints a vertical orientation into their fundamental skill sets. I've known "experienced" divers who could not even do something as simple as taking a compass heading without first having to settle on the bottom on their knees ... because that's what they were taught, and it never occurred to them to try it any other way ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 18th, 2012 at 10:34 AM ----------

Dear DCBC,

I haven't had as much teaching experience as you have had. Close to 1/3 of it if I've read correctly. The trend, where I am from is for divers undergoing even OW course, nevermind which agency, to request for truncated courses.

Frequently received requests from divers and divers to be are:

1. can we shorten the class time
2. can we shorten the pool time
3. can we get certified in less then 2 days
4. MY friends told me it was supposed to be very easy
5. I've READ that you only need to clear 7 skills for OW - the list goes on.

I've had to recap Chapter 1 and sometimes 2 of OW as students waltz in at their own convenience citing 'work' as a factor.

I think more is at play here then just what direction the industry has taken or is taking perhaps. Could it be that the industry is also responding to today's divers 'requests' (not all of course but over the last decade I see more and more) and directing themselves at where the 'business' is?

... my standard response to those questions is "perhaps you'd be happier with a different instructor" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 18th, 2012 at 10:40 AM ----------

Now add in the divers with split fins swimming horizontal four feet, or less, off the bottom raising the sandstorms as well.

This isn't the fault of the fins. One can easily dive split fins without kicking up silt ... even inches off the bottom. What it takes is proper technique. The reason you so often see this occurring is because the fins aren't being used properly ... which is to say either using a bent-knee technique and/or keeping the fins inside the slipstream.

Split fins are easy to overkick, because they offer so much less resistance than blade fins. Add to that the fact that most newer divers are like baby harbor seals ... zipping around trying to see everything.

Split fins are not, to my concern, appropriate for certain types of diving. But for typical recreational diving they are perfectly adequate to the task ... if you use them correctly.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

The GUE OW class was originally about a week long and involved, IIRC, somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 dives, and was estimated to be priced at the $1500 level. Be really honest -- would you have taken that class, when you decided to learn to dive? I wouldn't have. I didn't even know if I was going to LIKE diving, and I certainly never thought I would do much of it.

That's probably why Extreme Exposure, the home of GUE and GUE fundamentals, has made the GUE OW course (includes nitrox) only $600 now, and they also offer students PADI instruction as well. If you take GUE Fundamentals there, it will also cost $600.

 

[DCBC]

Care to share what NAUI has done to their standards to 'better' compete?

PM sent.

---------- Post added December 18th, 2012 at 03:13 PM ----------

And for those of you who adamantly maintain that standards for passing OW should be higher . . . when I finished OW, the only way I knew to descend in Puget Sound was on my back. I fell until I hit the bottom, rolled over, and went "diving". My buoyancy control was marginal at best, and I didn't hold a safety stop for a long time, even in warm water. The only two things I had going for me were that I wasn't nervous, and I decided I really wanted to learn to do this.

Would diving, dive buddies, or I have been better served if I had failed the class? If I had, I probably would have said to Peter, "Sorry, I tried," and gone about my life, having put a check in the "scuba diving" box and moved on.

I would have worked with you until you were competent. I would not have taken you to OW until you were. How does it serve the student to give them a card? Isn't it suppose to mean that you have demonstrated a certain degree of skill?

I hope that the authority that gave you your license to practice medicine was more thorough. That is not to say that you haven't learned anything since then, but you did demonstrate what was required of you at the onset.

We have seen students whose buoyancy, trim and propulsion weren't impressive at the end of OW, who have gone on to dive regularly and actually WORK on their skills, and have become good divers and good buddies. Some took more classes, and some fell in with good mentors. I've also seen students who have gone on to take more classes, who still struggle. How do you know which is which, when OW class ends?

Some of this works . . . we have had a pretty good percentage of ConEd students -- in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we have seen virtually all of our students who have decided to be local divers, back for additional class time. And yes, we don't know what happens to the ones who got certified to do one trip, or who do a few warm water dives every couple of years, if they happen to be somewhere where there is diving. But I submit that such people will never be the divers I envision, simply because the combination of rusty skills and rental equipment makes that very difficult.

I suppose it comes down to what's reasonable. For me this includes that they: possess good watermanship ability, good buoyancy control, are able to plan a dive and project gas consumption, demonstrate adequate knowledge and in-water skills, have a beginner's level of rescue ability (surface and sub-surface), demonstrate confidence, maintain good Buddy contact and communication and be able to dive independently in a Buddy team after they are certified. Fifty hours is usually required, but more time is available to them, if this is required.

I'm not saying that everyone's program should be as long, but a "certified diver" should be (at the time of certification) competent and not appear to need rescue unless this is in-fact warranted. A diver should be able to take the role of 'Buddy' on and not to be an unnecessary burden, or safety consideration.

 

[rhwestfall]

Tell the truth, you are kin to Jim Lapenta.....

 

[TSandM]

It's not just EE . . . GUE reevaluated the OW class, and made it shorter and less expensive, because even they realized that selling a class of the magnitude of the original one was an insuperable difficulty for their recreational instructors.

DCBC, I wasn't suggesting that it was RIGHT to pass me out of OW . . . I have said many times that I don't think I should have been passed, mostly because PADI's own standards weren't met. I'm just objecting, I guess, to the idea that no one who passes a class with marginal or poor skills will ever become a proficient diver. Do we really need to make classes so long and so difficult that most people don't want to take them, in order to prevent the "me's" from being inflicted on the underwater world?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's not just EE . . . GUE reevaluated the OW class, and made it shorter and less expensive, because even they realized that selling a class of the magnitude of the original one was an insuperable difficulty for their recreational instructors.

DCBC, I wasn't suggesting that it was RIGHT to pass me out of OW . . . I have said many times that I don't think I should have been passed, mostly because PADI's own standards weren't met. I'm just objecting, I guess, to the idea that no one who passes a class with marginal or poor skills will ever become a proficient diver. Do we really need to make classes so long and so difficult that most people don't want to take them, in order to prevent the "me's" from being inflicted on the underwater world?

I'd hate to think where we'd be today if you hadn't been inflicted on the underwater world ... a lot of divers, particularly here in ScubaBoard, would be the poorer for it.

If anything, you're the poster child for what can be accomplished with effort and determination.

Over the past eight years, the majority of my students have been "remedial" ... meaning they were already certified divers once they came to me. Many of them today are more skilled than I am ... in part because they were shown what is possible, and decided they wanted some of that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

Do we really need to make classes so long and so difficult that most people don't want to take them, in order to prevent the "me's" from being inflicted on the underwater world?

Amen sistuh!

I often tell people that I learned to dive three different times. First by a Master Chief of the Navy in 1969. I was actually certified by a horrid instructor about thirty years later. Then I found ScubaBoard and I finally learned to dive safely by changing my safety pauses to safety stops among other things. My diving and teaching continues to evolve as I learn and progress here on ScubaBoard.

 

[DCBC]

DCBC, I wasn't suggesting that it was RIGHT to pass me out of OW . . . I have said many times that I don't think I should have been passed, mostly because PADI's own standards weren't met.

Then the Instructor didn't fulfill his duty and failed to comply with PADI Standards. You shouldn't have been certified at that time for this reason. Standards are there for the protection of the student (and that student's Buddy). The Instructor dropped the ball. If you were my daughter, I would be even more upset that you were given a certification card.

I'm just objecting, I guess, to the idea that no one who passes a class with marginal or poor skills will ever become a proficient diver. Do we really need to make classes so long and so difficult that most people don't want to take them, in order to prevent the "me's" from being inflicted on the underwater world?

The duration, requirement and intensity of a class should be dependent upon the environment that the diver will be diving in. For many environments similar to warm, clear, holiday conditions, the current standards often suffice if the diver is properly supervised. Under more harsh conditions, the bar has to be raised if diver safety is to be ensured. There is never a reason to certify anyone with poor skills (marginal possibly, poor no). Mastery of specific skills are required by the certification agency. A diving class (imo) isn't one that you can just attend and get a passing grade because you attended.

My program is difficult, but I seldom have had anyone withdraw. People are there to learn and I'm there to help them. I donate my time and don't care if it takes them 200 hours of instruction for them to become certified (although over 90% complete the training in the time allotted). When they do, I feel confident that they could dive with any member of my family safely. That's my criteria for certification. Why would I certify anyone whom I felt was unsafe (regardless of certification level)? At this point, they are at the beginning of the journey and will learn much more as they gain experience. While they're learning, they don't present a hazard to themselves or their Buddy as they are competent to dive within the limitations of their certification. Usually however, they are eager for further training.

 

[Thalassamania]

As training agencies try to meet the wants of the prospective student, they often fail to meet the needs of the certified. That is the wrong direction. The correct direction would be to motivate the prospective student to want what the certified diver needs.

Currently, there are too many courses in my opinion. What's needed is a less is more approach that is less daunting and incredibly valuable. Off the top of my head:

1. Freediving + GUE Fundies or UTD Essentials should be the basis of Open Water diver training to 50 feet.

That's about what we've been doing since 1952 ... with an exit qualification of 30 feet.

2. PSAI and SDI Advanced Open Water style courses in which important core specialties are taught in approximately 25 dives such as Rescue, Navigation, Deep Diving, Night/Limited Visibility Diving, Search & Recovery, Nitrox, Advanced Buoyancy Control, Intro to Tech and Solo/Self-Sufficient Diving should round out a recreational diver's education to 100 feet.

At 25 dives, with similar training, we qualify to 60 feet.

3. The bar for Divemaster and Instructor experience, skills and training needs to go way up.

Way up, best way to do that is to dispense with all the crapolla instructor levels.

 

[Peter Guy]

ZenDiver -- I believe John, and others, have set out the "rescue skills" that are commonly taught in all open water classes (including PADI).

Also, I really don't believe what I wrote could fairly be held to be a criticism of other agencies. I wrote

I am also unaware of any recognized agency's open water course that does NOT include "rescue skills" -- both "self-rescue" and "buddy rescue." There ARE differences as to exactly what "rescue skills" are taught but ALL teach "rescue skills."

Seems to me this is pretty straight forward in opining that all agencies teach rescue skills.

And back to the regularly scheduled "discussion."