Diver Training: How much is enough?

[DCBC]

...It also gives people the advantage of stopping their training at the level they desire.

I suppose that's what it come down to. It's a given that anyone who is first certified has a lot to learn and this will be gained eventually through future training and experience. At the start however, what skill-sets should "be mastered?" What knowledge and skills are minimal for the new diver? If a person is certified and is your Buddy, what level of competence is reasonable? Is this the level that you see at your dive-sites?

If diver's are diving Solo rather than being Buddied-up with incompetent Buddies (which seems to be the case), I believe that this is something that affects all of us. I'm not saying that we should go back to the 1960's Diver Standards, but I do believe that we should take a second look at the direction the industry has taken (and continues to take).

For many years, I never experienced diver incompetence to the extent that I see today. Something has changed. Some may disagree and quote accident statistics and take a position that the death rate hasn't increased. Personally I believe that technology has made-up for the current training protocols. Because no one can show me a high death rate of skydivers who jump out of airplanes without a parachute, it doesn't mean that it's a good idea...

Many of us have experienced divers who don't have a clue. If you were an Instructor, how many of the divers you see would you certify (that have already been)?

There have always been divers who are taught the rules and who choose to disregard them. I have to question if this is the correct answer for the current state of diver competence. Why would generations of divers generally follow the rules and suddenly today choose to go renegade?

 

[xyrandomyx]

I don't know about non-swimmers (although you don't need to know how to swim to pass the watermanship test set by some agencies), but I've seen quite a number of people whose watermanship skills were very weak and they were obviously dependent upon their BC to keep them from drowning (overweighted and unable to affect required movement).

I went on a guided dive shortly after I got certified. The guide asked me and my buddy 'You can swim, right?' So we started laughing, assuming he must be joking. He told us he was quite serious -- the dive involved a 200 metre/ yard surface swim. He'd taken two tourists out to that site the week before and had to tow them both back 50 metres/ yards into the surface swim out.

 

[MSDT476614]

... I'm not saying that we should go back to the 1960's Diver Standards, but I do believe that we should take a second look at the direction the industry has taken (and continues to take).

For many years, I never experienced diver incompetence to the extent that I see today. Something has changed. ...

There have always been divers who are taught the rules and who choose to disregard them. I have to question if this is the correct answer for the current state of diver competence. Why would generations of divers generally follow the rules and suddenly today choose to go renegade?

Dear DCBC,

I haven't had as much teaching experience as you have had. Close to 1/3 of it if I've read correctly. The trend, where I am from is for divers undergoing even OW course, nevermind which agency, to request for truncated courses.

Frequently received requests from divers and divers to be are:

1. can we shorten the class time
2. can we shorten the pool time
3. can we get certified in less then 2 days
4. MY friends told me it was supposed to be very easy
5. I've READ that you only need to clear 7 skills for OW - the list goes on.

I've had to recap Chapter 1 and sometimes 2 of OW as students waltz in at their own convenience citing 'work' as a factor.

I think more is at play here then just what direction the industry has taken or is taking perhaps. Could it be that the industry is also responding to today's divers 'requests' (not all of course but over the last decade I see more and more) and directing themselves at where the 'business' is?

 

[Bob DBF]

There is no question in my mind that my training program is overkill for someone who wants to blow bubbles in bathtub like conditions and look at the fish in 30 FSW. Not every diver however lives and dives in these locations. For those that do, these conditions are not the only ones in-which they dive. As Tater mentioned in a previous post (and I agree) that the conditions should dictate the training a diver receives and because of this it's reasonable that the curriculum will change as a result of the environment.

My issue is not so much between training for the "bathtub" diving or Popeye's SCUBA training and sea monster irradication, but in either case you walk out with the same OW cert. If the training is to be spread over a number of seperate classes, the OW certification should be at the end, not at the begining.

I agree with Peter and his grandfather that the "good old days" are over rated. At that time there was no need for a C-card which ment that SCUBA training was optional and there were divers with no training, formal or informal. However, let's not sell buddy breathing short, my training was not just sharing the regulater, but controling a possibly paniced diver and keeping the situation from evolving into a larger problem. Not likely to be a problem now, but...


Bob
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That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[Peter Guy]

One of the problems I have with this (type) of thread is that the primary assumption, current mass dive training is "dumbed down" and/or bad, is based on the "product" that is seen by various individuals.

For many years, I never experienced diver incompetence to the extent that I see today. Something has changed.

This is, of course, the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. Without knowing more of those who demonstrate "diver incompetence" one can't know WHY they are "incompetent" or even if they are. (For example, has the observer changed and/or suffering from the "rose colored memory" syndrome?)

I know that my students will show "incompetence" (to a greater or lesser degree) 6 or 12 or more months after I have certified them as Open Water Divers if they don't continue to dive (and practice) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Perhaps the "cause" of the perceived greater level of "incompetence" is not the training but the vacation diving industry. If one only goes diving for a few days every 12 - 24 months, regardless of how great one's training may have been in the beginning, how competent can the individual be? Unless one has seen the diver at the end point of the training cycle and then compared that to the diving observed "X" months later, how can one say "the training sucked?"

 

[Bob DBF]

I would like to see for once at a dive site all of the divers swimming in a horizontal position instead of vertical.

I like being vertical, head down looking up under a rock.

It appears to be normal at many places where there is a large teaching school, the majority of divers are all seen to be swimming in a vertical position with no buoyancy control and underwater sandstorms all over the place.

Now add in the divers with split fins swimming horizontal four feet, or less, off the bottom raising the sandstorms as well.

IMHO these divers are processed instead of being taught the basic skills and demonstrate that they can apply them properly before being certified.

How come I get this picture of a big blender in my mind. Imagination or wishfull thinking?



I'm lucky, not many tourists up here on the North Coast of CA. On the dive boats down south, I just make my dive away from the rest of the crowd. I'll get ready for culture shock the next time I dive in a "destination".




Bob
-------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[Colliam7]

My question was motivated by the following post in the Solo Diving area:

"One more reason: . . . Sunday I went to an invitational dive and got parternered with a total ditz. ""

I'm sure many of us have seen divers that they would not feel comfortable diving with. How prevalent is this? Do people disregard much of what they were taught, or simply were they not taught how to dive safely to begin with? Has the "Diver certification industry" lowered the standards too far??

I haven't been teaching 43 years so my experience base is limited by comparison to yours. My thoughts are also influenced by several biases. Probably, like more than a few others on SB, I am biased by being around many divers that I have certified, who I do not think could possibly behave as the described diver did - after all, I trained them so it is simply not possible (or, is it). I am also biased by regularly observing divers who have been certified by other instructors in the same shop as me, where the expectations of student performance are somewhat similar across instructors. And, finally, I guess I am biased by a general sense that 'the good old days' were not necessarily any better, or even that good, they were just different. My thoughts, on the situation in the original thread, and on your questions:

1. I think the in-water behavior of the described diver is more an anomaly than the 'usual and customary' (with the possible exception of the finning issue). I have seen similar 'technique' in a very limited number of cases, and I consider those divers to be outliers - 7 standard deviations beyond the usual product. OK, in a really strong current I may well pull myself along hand over hand (or, finger-tip by finger-tip to be more accurate). And, one time off the NC coast I did something stupid and dropped off the mooring line and descended to the bottom thinking it would be easy to find the wreck we were tied to. It wasn't, and I finally surfaced to figure out where we were - only about 40 yards from the boat. I do see my share of silt divers, including a few instructors, though. In fairness, I doubt seriously that the described diver could have been certified if she pulled herself along on a silty quarry bottom during OW dives, or went off in the completely wrong direction during the U/W Compass Navigation exercise and couldn't get back to the starting point.

2. I think the most reasonable answer to the issue, do divers disregard teachings or not receive teachings in the first place, is the former. I do think there are divers who behave, during training, more or less as the instructor indicates that they should behave, and then go off and do whatever they want after certification - not large numbers, but a few. Or, they simply have not yet developed the specific 'muscle memory' or instinct by the end of the formal training period, and revert to what they do know. I have it happen with a few of my own students. As one example, I forcefully emphasize the use of the frog kick during open water training, as the primary / best finning technique for recreational diving. I start by explaining WHY and HOW, the first time we enter the pool. I continue by 'correcting' them u/w when I see them lapse, I remind them regularly during CW and OW - why and how. By the end of OW Dive 4, many (but not all) students are performing the frog kick to some extent, some with more proficiency than others. Even if they aren't, I will still certify them (presuming the stipulated skills requirements are met) because, after all, there is no requirement that the student use a particular finning technique - just my individual preference. I have subsequently seen some former students, who performed the frog kick competently during training, using a flutter kick later, after certification, and possibly stirring up silt in the process. Frustrating, but, reality. I think they modelled the behavior they knew I wanted to see, during training, then did what they wanted, or more to the point what they were most comfortable with, afterward. It isn't a perfect world. I have also seen more than a few former students continue to develop the use of the frog kick after certification. Life does have it little consolations.

Is this a reason why people abandon the Buddy system in favor of diving alone?

3. I think many people solo dive not because they are concerned about being paired with a 'dangerous' or incompetent buddy (although they might say that is the reason), but because they are concerned about being paired with an inconvenient buddy - someone with a different diving style. I solo dive because I WANT TO. I want to go at MY pace, go WHERE I want to, WHEN I want to, stay AS LONG as I want (and gas supply allows), etc. I could go on but you probably get the point. I dive solo not because I am particularly critical of other divers (I am critical, but that isn't why I dive solo), but I dive solo because I want to. An anecdotal example: Years ago, my son and I dove the U-701 off the NC coast, on a shop trip. On the boat, we were buddied up with a 3rd diver (who we knew, but hadn't dove with before) who didn't have a buddy. We all descended to the sub on the bottom at 115 ft, swam around for a while, and the third diver went through his air somewhat quickly, signalling after a few minutes that he was down to 900 psi and was going up. He probably would have been happy to ascend alone. My son and I both still had 1700 psi on HP 120s, but I decided, as a good buddy, to go up with him, and my son did the same. (If, for whatever reason, he hadn't made it to the surface, I would have felt responsible.) I made the call in part out of a sense of buddy obligation - we hadn't discussed having any one of us ascend solo, in our pre-dive briefing - and in part because we were scheduled to visit the 701 again the next day so it wasn't a big deal. The weather turned that night, we were blown out the next day and I have yet to visit the 701 again. The curtailed dive wasn't the result of an incompetent or unsafe diver. His air use was his air use. But, I decided after that to be more selective in my diving partners. I suspect others have dove with me in the past and elected not to do so again, possibly for the same reason. My current primary dive buddy and I fit each other's style quite well. We are probably what would be described as SOB's much of the time in the water, but we seem to instinctively know where each other is at all times, even if we are 40 feet apart. I dive with the shop owner, and a limited number of other divers, on a periodic basis, for the same reason. I don't have to worry about them, and they don't have to worry about me. We essentially are solo diving at the same time and at the same site.

Do you feel that a high percentage of new divers fall into the incompetent category?

4. I don't see many instructors out there who are knowingly certifying divers who are a danger to themselves or others. If it is happening, I am not seeing the 'dangerous' divers in the water, or reading about them regularly on SB. I don't believe that a high percentage of new divers fall into the 'incompetent' category. In fact, I think the percentage is comfortably low. I certainly do not think that all new divers, including some that I have trained, dive the way I think they should, after certification, but that doesn't mean they are dangerous or incompetent.

Is recreational diving heading in the correct direction? Should the direction be changed?

5. It is heading in the direction that many things are heading - cheaper and faster, and more technology-driven and technology-dependent. That is reality, it isn't going to change, and I am not going to waste time to 'curse the rain'. And, it isn't necessarily dangerous - if it was we would see the results, in incidents and accidents, on a regular basis and we simply don't, extreme anecdotes notwithstanding. I don't necessarily think cheaper and faster is better, in diving or other things, nor do I see much that is positive in our blind, religious devotion to technology. But, it is the way of the world.

When I learned to fly some 20 years ago, I learned to navigate with non-directional radio beacons. I took pride in the skill. A VOR was a luxury (which I admit I liked using), and the GPS was unheard of. Now, the NDB is a museum piece, and I see student pilots who obsessively drool over the latest color, moving-map GPS, and whose pilotage and dead reckoning skills, even their ability to use a chart, seem crude (but, that is MY opinion). Are they dangerous? Well, they are not regularly coming to grief by flying to the wrong destination or running out of fuel, etc. So, I don't think they are dangerous, or incompetent. I am also not sure how much I would want to fly with them.

 

[rhwestfall]

The other piece of the puzzle, is "us".... Do we just b*&ch and abandon, or do we take the time to mentor? I spent the summer in a MSD program, that frankly, due to prior comprehensive training and many years of diving with folks that mentored me, was a thorough "repeat". I had a blast! For the buddies I was in it with however, it was very many new experiences. Through the classes, it was actually a lot of fun to be there with them, and offer insight and experiences when things got "difficult" for them. Once it was finished, I have one of my classmates who is now a regular buddy with me when I dive. His skills are getting better, and diving with him is making me a better diver too....

We too play a role, as a good example, a guiding force, a good buddy. We should be an asset to them rather than an ass...... the "old" system had that as a major component too.

Lets put spins on things: maybe "my buddy left me" should be "I didn't let him get away". After it is over, there may be some constructive criticism, and the method of delivery needs to be thought out....

Adopt a diver!

 

[The Chairman]

Have we dumbed Scuba down? No we've funned it up! Is the training inadequate? No, it's contradictory and confusing.

I echo the fact that bad divers have been around a long, long time. When I bought my first set of fins in 1969, I was told by "Mr Scuba" that the jet fins were the best because you could really kick the crap out of the reef without harming the fin. Wow. That speaks of bad trim and buoyancy and this was from an instructor: a credentialed and highly respected instructor.

In the past, Scuba was taught with a "need to know" mentality. It was the way the shop/instructor exercised power over their students. Students had no idea that some of the skills were nothing but ego boosts for their instructors. They just did as they were told and hoped that some day, they too would understand and be allowed admission to the holy sanctum of being an instructor. With the advent of the Internet and ScubaBoard in particular, instructors don't get to control information like they used to. Instead of learning from a sage on the stage, the average student can assimilate all they need to know about the physiology and physics of diving in a fraction of the time with an online class. After that, they can learn a lot about the safety aspects of the sport right here. Instructors are still needed, but they need to recognize that their role has changed and will change even more. I like that there is a renewed focus on FUNdamentals! That's what we dive for.

 

[CT-Rich]

I am a recent return to diving also and decided that I woul take a newbie as a buddy only if I was going to make a commitment into tu him into a regular buddy. I have seen enough divers that I would not relie on in a pinch. I can happily dive solo,because some of the insta buddies, would pose more of a hazzard than a help in tight spot. I am hesitant to say it is just bad training. As training and gear becomes more widely available, you attract a roaderaudiance. That means anot every new diver is going to have
a level of commitment we saw 20-30 tyears ago.