Diver Training: How much is enough?

[waterpirate]

I will freely admit that the exposure I get to unskilled divers is limited by me. I dive only with people I know at this point, or have been vetted. The boats I ride now are not typical of vacation boats. The new punter to the boat is usually interviewed by the capt. prior to booking. The first dive is generally to 100fsw or less. A dive to that depth gives a good first look at the punter. Gear, skills, attitude, ect. All divers are expected to BYOB or be prepared to go SD/SO.

Invariably a punters gear or skills or attitude is a " little sketchy " even for the 100fsw dive. At that point they are mentored, pointed towards more training or both. If the punters team or individual takes said advice well he gets better and progresses. If they do not take said advice, a speed limit/ depth limit is imposed.

Just as with any sport or endeavor, fun is the key. I no longer fault or look down on people with poor skills if they choose to only dive within their limits. The choice is allways going to be thiers to improve, not ours to impose.
Eric

 

[dpaustex]

Well, good comments here.

My students get all of the drills, learn to clear their mask, find their reg - and hopefully get the idea of buoyancy. I work and work and work on getting them to understand it. Unfortunately, you can talk about it, how it works, etc., but some people simply don't get the skill. They don't - as I like to say - give the physics a chance to work, when changes are made to their in-water volume (and hence their buoyancy). Many are too quick to hit the inflator if they've dumped too much air, and conversely don't dump on ascents when they should. Of course, we're teaching in a 10 foot deep pool, and our OW "dives" are kept to 30 feet.

I tell people the OW card is a start. I tell them to do some "easy" blue water dives, and tell the dive operator they're newbies. Above all, I tell them to dive with others more experienced and to work on buoyancy, buoyancy, buoyancy (and the weighting that goes with this). I tell them that even though I'm an instructor, I never quit learning.

And I also tell them that being in a class is NOT a "gimme" on their card. But if they pass the written test and in-water skills, they get the card. Doesn't mean their buoyancy is spot-on, but I also tell them they all need to work on it until they have it down.

 

[NAM001]

Assuming a good instructor, I am not sure how any training issues can be fixed. No matter what the intentions of trainers are, the classes will be filled with those that were brought up in a atmosphere of "thre are no failures we are all winners. This is not to say that they are stupid. Quite the contrary, Most have better business sence that most of us. I say this because they know about consumer presure. The trainers need students more than students need trainers. Especially at the intro levels. Trainers also know this. If bob down the street is an easy passer, then you also have to be if you want your market share. Students are from an instant gratification mind set that includes the "If you dont give it to me I will find someone else who will. I would call it the "vehicle inspection sticker process" I hear several comments like "my students dont do that". well they do. If the rule is only one person on a rope swing then guarentee there will be 2 hanging from the rope to prove its not unsafe. Next we have a letigious system that loads everything with clutter that has no benifit to any one in the matter at hand. This gets reinforced the first time the go out alone and see activity contrary to what they have been taught. We have a hoop system that says show up and you pass. No where has the majority of students been exposed to a "YOU CAN/WILL DIE" environment. It is not real, it is a scare tactic, ect. So they dont take training seriously. Never have i heard (by the newbies) that a certification is a documantation of skills, It is something that has more meaning when accompanied by many other certs. At best for some it is the necessary evil to get air.. Now i have also heard many comments like this is a minority of divers. I highly suspect that those students refered to do not dive with many of us because they know deep down if they do they will come out with bruised egos. The biggest savior that we have is the cost pf the sport that acts as a filter to weed out the worst of potential students. I find a few groupings of new young divers. Those who are serious about diving. Those who are rejected by thier pier group and need a place to belong. Those who are looking for something new to do as result of some life change. Those who are looking for a new croud of friends to associate with. Those who want a ticket to impress others with. Those who dive because of what others expect of them. Half of those will realize that this is a death activity, half of those will finish the course and never dive again, (broke up with boyfriend or this is too scary). Then we have the other bunch that are invincible and are out to tackle the world. THOSE are the ones that we talk about. Not the latter. The ones that hang 2-3 people on a one person swing. The thrill seekers that go into wrecks and caves with thier new ow certs. The ones that we all have to sit back and patiently wait for the right event to happen to them to shock them into moving from the thrill seekers groupe to the first group I referenced earlier. For most it is something manageable like a lost tank or lost buddy or getting helplessly hung up when going somewhere they should not have been. The majority come through this process physically unscaved but emotioally shaken into reality. Then there is that last 10 percent that no mattter what happens they will not learn. We all know the group. 200 feet on air "we dont need no stinkin badges" Training cant fix that. Or as someone else said You cant fix stupid. Mentoring works on the uninformed/inexperienced and somewhat miss guided group. They develope into the good diver group. When i was yound we had the road kill movies to deter drinking and driving. Those tactics dont work today. The young are hands on types and learn from experience more that warnings. So i guess that we should be overjoyed that our complaints are centered on the 10% because shortly it will be the 20. Perhaps when it gets to 30 % or more the original 10 will take up sky diving, but that still leaves us with 20. This is why every dive i make, i do it solo, even when i have a buddy.

 

[j yaeger]

i'm really good at teaching the padi "wheel" for dm's and multi-level divers....
crap...
the one thing i was good at...
times change,embrace it,work with it,enhance it.
adopt a diver!love it!!!!teach them by diving with them,instead of looking down your nose at them!!!!
you can always solo dive....
but, i like time with fellow divers also-newbie to old hands!ain't about the dives,it's about the divers i'm with
have fun
yaeg

 

[Thalassamania]

Have we dumbed Scuba down? No we've funned it up! Is the training inadequate? No, it's contradictory and confusing.

I echo the fact that bad divers have been around a long, long time. When I bought my first set of fins in 1969, I was told by "Mr Scuba" that the jet fins were the best because you could really kick the crap out of the reef without harming the fin. Wow. That speaks of bad trim and buoyancy and this was from an instructor: a credentialed and highly respected instructor.

In the past, Scuba was taught with a "need to know" mentality. It was the way the shop/instructor exercised power over their students. Students had no idea that some of the skills were nothing but ego boosts for their instructors. They just did as they were told and hoped that some day, they too would understand and be allowed admission to the holy sanctum of being an instructor. With the advent of the Internet and ScubaBoard in particular, instructors don't get to control information like they used to. Instead of learning from a sage on the stage, the average student can assimilate all they need to know about the physiology and physics of diving in a fraction of the time with an online class. After that, they can learn a lot about the safety aspects of the sport right here. Instructors are still needed, but they need to recognize that their role has changed and will change even more. I like that there is a renewed focus on FUNdamentals! That's what we dive for.

I am sure glad that I am able to live in a galaxy far, far away from the one that you've had to experience. We have always been able to have lots of fun while being smart at the same time.

 

[DCBC]

I think more is at play here then just what direction the industry has taken or is taking perhaps. Could it be that the industry is also responding to today's divers 'requests' (not all of course but over the last decade I see more and more) and directing themselves at where the 'business' is?

Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head. When was it that a profit centered business dictated to the masses what was required to safely fly an airplane, drive a car, or who should own a firearm? Multi-Billion dollar businesses all. But Safety has always been seen are a crutial element when it came to the growth and survival of the sport (especially if it was to remain free of government involvement and legislation). Our sport has a history of diver certification agencies focusing on safety. Slogans like "Safety through Education" (NAUI), "Teaching the World how to Dive" (PADI), etc. Can we in the Sport Diving Community leave the future of our Sport solely to for-profit companies?

I'm not saying that things have fallen so far, but if a trend exists, it's advisable to be aware of it. Or at least I believe that it's prudent to do so. I can't see it valuable to the industry if people are being "certified" that are incompetent to dive. Diver retention is another factor that affects the industry. If people are feeling ill-at-ease, they have a higher chance of getting out of the sport. If this happens, something is lost imo.

I don't know how it truly is, as I only have my own experiences to go on. What I see however, leads me to asking the question. What do you think? Is my impression flawed?

 

[Thalassamania]

...

I don't know how it truly is, as I only have my own experiences to go on. What I see however, leads me to asking the question. What do you think? Is my impression flawed?

The basic problem is that you and I know what is possible, while many others have not had the same experiences, but think that what they are doing is adequate because they've never seen or considered any other possibilities.

 

[rhwestfall]

i'm really good at teaching the padi "wheel" for dm's and multi-level divers....
crap...
the one thing i was good at...
times change,embrace it,work with it,enhance it.
adopt a diver!love it!!!!teach them by diving with them,instead of looking down your nose at them!!!!
you can always solo dive....
but, i like time with fellow divers also-newbie to old hands!ain't about the dives,it's about the divers i'm with
have fun
yaeg

exactly! If you don't like it, make an impression! Make a difference!


sidebar: This summer, I spent $150 (might have been more) on a two tank charter that was on a pair of wrecks. Being part of a class, the guy I was diving with was going to be experiencing 130' on a wreck in the cold dark waters of the Great Lakes for the first time. For me, it was my third attempt on this site, all previous had failed due to weather. I've been on a bunch of stuff like this, so aside from a new ship, I had "been there". Anyhow, the dive was as follows:

1) Over 6 minutes to get to 118' I let him lead at his pace.
2) We never left the mooring line (except to drop around another group that was having their own issues).
3. Saw the stern and rudder, and then he got cold, and a little "freaked out" with the whole experience overload. He thumbed it.
4. Time to go up....

The expression of wonder on his face when the dive was over was worth every penny!!!!!! Can't wait to get back to this site, and with him or not, more adventure awaits!

You take the good with the "bad".

 

[MSDT476614]

... Our sport has a history of diver certification agencies focusing on safety. Slogans like "Safety through Education" (NAUI), "Teaching the World how to Dive" (PADI), etc. Can we in the Sport Diving Community leave the future of our Sport solely to for-profit companies?

I'm not saying that things have fallen so far, but if a trend exists, it's advisable to be aware of it. Or at least I believe that it's prudent to do so. I can't see it valuable to the industry if people are being "certified" that are incompetent to dive. Diver retention is another factor that affects the industry. If people are feeling ill-at-ease, they have a higher chance of getting out of the sport. If this happens, something is lost imo.

I don't know how it truly is, as I only have my own experiences to go on. What I see however, leads me to asking the question. What do you think? Is my impression flawed?

Dear DCBC,

I do not think there is a flawed impression from you. If there are flawed impressions I would attribute it to an overload and ease to wealth of (mis)information available on the net. Even here on SB it happens. Not intentionally here but when someone, for instance, makes a reg/equipment recommendation fervently, they often do not first enquire who is going to be using this piece of gear. What is the suitability for the conditions and skill level? New divers will take this information, sans background, and shove it in 'your' face and tell you: this is reliable information. If you're lucky as an instructor you get a chance to correct some misperceptions.

Its certainly good to be aware of trends be it for business purposes or to simply keep general dive safety levels up through skills enhancement! As others have mentioned elsewhere "you don't know what you don't know" - in relation to new divers.

The sport having a history of focusing on safety is, IMHO where I am operating out of, become a sport where everyone can dive and new instructors take on 17 OW students in open water with 2 newly certified DMs. Sadly, the idea these days of 'customer service' is providing the cheapest possible price and even loss leaders if necessary.

As others have mentioned too in this thread and elsewhere: students often take with them only what they want to take in terms of skills and knowledge. How many OW certified divers remember how to use the table after a year out of water? How many AOW students, out of water after OW for several years, balk at coughing up time and money for a refresher? How many instructors take away all that is taught in their ITCs / IDCs then go right ahead and break the supposed standards anyway?

Its quite complex. I can understand why some people take away only selective knowledge. For instance for us here in South East Asia, 'boat diving specialty' is one of the 'stupidest' specialties to teach. In our operations locally, divers do boat dives 9 out of 10 dives they make. Shore diving on the other hand has to be 'taught' though no specialty (individual course) covers that. Selective knowledge 'disbursement' by the agencies?

Also, while in touch with the 'younger' instructors who've just completed their training I've noticed another trend. ITCs/IDCs these days are focussed much more on selling then on teaching and problem identification/resolution for student divers. That said, many here also allude to the fact that practice will normally generate improvements - if the noobs are lucky enough to be paired with more senior divers who really know what they are doing in the first place and who don't go off 'solo' so they can enjoy their own dives that is.

We can't stop people from doing what they want. Case in point. Not too long ago I was on a weeklong Galapagos charter. Baldly stated on their websites: divers should have 100 dives or more. Business accepted: everybody. Did they have a choice? Not really, they've got a business to run. I helped out the local in-water DMs to manage some of the more adventurous noobs who came with 25 dives, 30 dives, 40 dives and some of these who's last dive was 3 years ago in warm waters like the Carribbean.

Skipping through another bunch of linked facts, it could also be that 'cheap' divers are what's driving this behaviour and hence the industry direction alongside greed by businesses and those who don't know better then to compete on price only as opposed to quality?

Very complex issues.

 

[They call me Tater]

Lot of intersting points have been raised (and so far no flaming). It has been eluded to by other post but I tend to believe perhaps it is the students who have changed the most along with the perception that diving just another recreational activity like jet skiing or Parasailing...As opposed to those of us who want to learn and experience everything the water has to offer but respect the fact that it can kill.

I love the idea of being able to solo dive so I could dive much more often....but I was trained that wouldn't be safe. Even a bad buddy would be safer to my way of thinking. If you find other divers too annoying...(and it is easy to do) perhaps that is another part of the problem..not enough mentoring and too much "I". Just a thought.