Diver Training: How much is enough?

[CT-Rich]

Lot of intersting points have been raised (and so far noflaming). It has been eluded to by other post but I tend to believe perhaps itis the students who have changed the most along with the perception that diving just another recreational activity like jet skiing or Parasailing...As opposed to those of us who want to learn and experience everything the water has to offer but respect the fact that it can kill.

I love the idea of being able to solo dive so I could dive much more often....but I was trained that wouldn't be safe. Even a bad buddy would besafer to my way of thinking. If you find other divers too annoying...(and it iseasy to do) perhaps that is another part of the problem..not enough mentoringand too much "I". Just a thought.

I like solo diving because it takes pressure off me to find a warm body to be in the water with. I love the solitude of it, I find solo extremely peaceful,and low stress. With a warm body dive partner, I spend a lot of time looking at their trim and gear issues. I have been on more than one dive where the insta-buddy thumbed the dive because they were underweighted. Love helping them out and getting them experienced so they do better/ have more fun. But at the same time I go down to the sea for my own purposes.

I do think we are seeing a change in the way newbies see diving. Today there has been a shift towards extreme sports. BMX, Ski diving, snowboarding,offroading and a lot of other activities have grown in popularity. Diving unlike most of those other sports, does not have a speed component. A high degree of intensity is needed to slide down a mountain at 30+ mph. By comparison, dive accidents tend to happen in slow motion. With DCS you commit the crime long before you have to pony up. This is why people drown in caves. The mistake was going in unprepared, the punishment is they can't get out.

A snowboarder going into a tree or off a ledge has a half second between error and payment. Those of us that had the old school dive training and people who want to do more than a half dozen tropical dives a year spend a lot of time thinking about aspects of diving where training and cool headedness are going to be a life saver. The rest of them, if they are reasonably careful, will never seea situation where there basic skills and technology aren't going to get them through their dive career of 50-100 dives.

Is that good? Don't know, risks are taken every day with very mundane tasks like driving, house painting and boating. How many people realistically would know how to recover from a skid by taking their foot off the brake and turning into theskid? How many people people have an exposure suit on board there boat for fishing in December? I just helped some canoeists out of 55F water at the end of October. they weren't even wearing there life vests.

As a sport, diving is growing. It has some incredible upsides. Eco-tourism is making life better for people all around the world and educating us in developed countries about a natural world that needs protecting. Modern gear is making it safer and more enjoyable than ever before (Compare an off the rackwetsuit from 1980 with one today). Dive computers, make it easier to stay within the NDL and Nitrox a relative breeze to use. Diving is inherently safer today, so the training has become more lax as it has become more widely accessable. This isn't much different than other sports like skiing and sportflying. It is what it is.

The value of mentoring and additional courses is it gives those that want to become something beyond the vacation diver an avenue for growth.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

I'm sure many of us have seen divers that they would not feel comfortable diving with. How prevalent is this?

I would say on the average dive boat here in palm beach there is usually 1 out of every 8 on the boat that would have been better served to leave ashore lol.

Do people disregard much of what they were taught,

As is human nature, intensional or not... Now were talking about learning retention which varies widely and depends on many factors...

or simply were they not taught how to dive safely to begin with?

Crap rolls down hill and history tend to repeat itself... Poor students taught by crappy instructors who were poor students taught by crappy instructors... I say cut the head off the course directors who allow poor instructors to pass- on a pass/fail basis. Just because they did what was required doesn't mean they should teach.

Has the "Diver certification industry" lowered the standards too far??

We may have to wait till it hits bottom to answer that question... Does that answer your question?

Do you feel that a high percentage of new divers fall into the incompetent category?

Wow... As a whole with in this industry all agencies and instructors included I would say there is much room for improvement. Starting with instructor re-qualifications and periodic evaluations...

Is this a reason why people abandon the Buddy system in favor of diving alone?

That or their just anti-social....

Is recreational diving heading in the correct direction? Should the direction be changed?

Depends on the end result you're looking for. I think diving as a whole has become much safer based off technology and our understanding of diving theories/models etc... However I don't think its for everyone. As this industry pushes to make diving easier for everyone I think standards will be reduced to accommodate those who could not normally pass. I also think the manufacturers will push products that increase user performance to allow those who could not otherwise dive, to be able to dive... More customers more money blah blah blah...

 

[boulderjohn]

1. My cousin got "certified" in the mid 1960s in New Jersey. There was no agency certification agency involved. A local sporting goods store sold him the gear and gave him a quick lesson. They supplied him with whatever he needed to dive as long as he was diving. (He stopped after going off to college.)

2. Here is a story from a totally different field--maybe people will be able to transfer my point to scuba instruction. For several years I was one of two teachers teaching journalism at a very large high school. In the first years, we had to struggle with a very difficult system for getting headlines to fit in the allotted space. It was called the AP counting system, with each letter and space being given a different numerical value. You would write a headline and add up the values. Then you would refer to your headline schedule to see if the number was correct for the font size you wanted to use and the space available. If not, you rewrote the headline. Then you would send it to a typesetter, who would supposedly follow your specifications. Than it would come back to you and you would check, often finding that despite your most careful work, it did not fit, and you would have to start over again.

Then we got computerized desktop publishing. You could type your headline, see it on the screen, adjust as needed, and print it on the spot. Wow! I would guess that the old system was obsolete just about everywhere in a matter of months.

I then transferred to a different job in the school system. Years later I found myself in the school again for a different reason, and I took the occasion to visit the other journalism teacher, who was still there. Her students were taking a test on the AP headline counting system, a system probably not being used anywhere in the world--including the school newspaper she supervised--at that time. I asked her why she was teaching that. She said, "I'm not dropping my standards."

4. Maybe divers aren't abandoning the buddy system because they weren't taught it properly. Perhaps they are gong to places like the Solo Diving forum on ScubaBoard and reading the arguments that solo diving is not only safe, it is safer than the buddy system. (I don't buy that, but obviously many people do.)

5. In most areas of the country, young drivers take very extensive driver education classes before they get their driver's licenses. Yet we have people driving 40 MPH over the speed limit. We have people driving drunk. Do we conclude that those classes do not teach the dangers of speeding or of driving under the influence of alcohol?

6. A couple of days ago I taught a scuba refresher course. Two of the people were NAUI-trained divers who had not been diving in 11 years. Their skills were quite poor, and they did not know a lot of key concepts. My need to work with them so extensively took away from my time to work with the more recently trained PADI divers who were far superior and needed much less help. Do I conclude that their NAUI instruction was pathetic, or do I assume that they forgot a few things and lost some skill over more than a decade of not diving?

 

[BDSC]

If one only goes diving for a few days every 12 - 24 months, regardless of how great one's training may have been in the beginning, how competent can the individual be?

That was one point my instructor, back in 91 when I was certified, hammered home to us. He said I would be surprised at how many folks actually take the class, get the card, and never go diving again. So he really pushed us to go diving as often as possible. He also made it very clear that what he was going to teach us in class would well prepare us to be able to go out and dive on our own and he was right. My buddy and I finished out OW class on a Sunday and the very next Friday we loaded up my pick-up and headed to the Florida Springs with one of those books telling you how to find the sites and what dumpsters to turn at next. Within a month from that I was off to Florida to dive the Keys and I have been actively diving ever since.

About six years ago my wife got certified. I think, but I'm not 100% sure about this, that the only skill she didn't learn/practice was buddy breathing. Other than that everything else was as I remembered. Soon after that we were on a trip to Roatan and then to Cozumel. Today I think she is a very good diver and probably a better buddy than myself. It was not something either of us learned about but then sat on it for months or years. So I think Peter has a good point. Just how well can anyone improve their skills and appear to be a competent diver if they aren't spending time in the water.

Additional thoughts from me:

I have never liked the phrase that your OW cert is a "license to learn". I always thought you should learn what you need to know to safely be able to dive and then you get the license/cert. I generally find that when someone tells you it's a "license to learn", they are ready to sell you the next course.

OW training should include rescue skills even if it means making the course longer and charging more but we know that's not how the model works or ever will. Money to be made in additional courses.

I think there is pressure on instructors (from shop owners) to find a way to pass folks when they know they shouldn't. I know several instructors and it's quite rare that they fail anyone and I know of one instructor who has never failed anyone. They did have one person pull out of the class because they decided it just wasn't for them. It seems the running joke is, "I didn't know anyone could fail the (insert agency) OW class." I wonder how long a "shop instructor" would last if they actually started failing folks they thought shouldn't be in the water.

 

[Peter Guy]

BDSC commented on what appears to be a common mistake/misconception about current dive training. He wrote

OW training should include rescue skills

While I'm the first to admit I don't know the standards for any except PADI courses, I am also unaware of any recognized agency's open water course that does NOT include "rescue skills" -- both "self-rescue" and "buddy rescue." There ARE differences as to exactly what "rescue skills" are taught but ALL teach "rescue skills."

That someone would write what BDSC wrote is so sad and says so much more about the state of "cyber training" than it does about real world training. I know there are "some" (ahem) who bemoan the "lack of teaching rescue skills" by PADI (in particular) when they really mean they disagree with what rescue skills are taught, in particular "buddy breathing" and "recovery of an unresponsive diver underwater."

The last time this was "discussed" at least one of the most vocal "old timers" (I believe the one who is living on a pile of rock somewhere in the middle of the ocean) finally acknowledged that, in reality, learning these skills as an open water diver had much more to do with demonstrating comfort than demonstrating actual "rescue skills." Fair enough (although I disagree that teaching those two skills is the appropriate way to enhance "diving comfort" as opposed to requiring your students to make and hold 1 or 2 foot stops for example).

BUT, rescue skills ARE taught and, at least in my perhaps naive opinion, at least within the PADI system, the Open Water student learns the right ones.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

BDSC commented on what appears to be a common mistake/misconception about current dive training. He wrote

While I'm the first to admit I don't know the standards for any except PADI courses, I am also unaware of any recognized agency's open water course that does NOT include "rescue skills" -- both "self-rescue" and "buddy rescue." There ARE differences as to exactly what "rescue skills" are taught but ALL teach "rescue skills."

That someone would write what BDSC wrote is so sad and says so much more about the state of "cyber training" than it does about real world training. I know there are "some" (ahem) who bemoan the "lack of teaching rescue skills" by PADI (in particular) when they really mean they disagree with what rescue skills are taught, in particular "buddy breathing" and "recovery of an unresponsive diver underwater."

The last time this was "discussed" at least one of the most vocal "old timers" (I believe the one who is living on a pile of rock somewhere in the middle of the ocean) finally acknowledged that, in reality, learning these skills as an open water diver had much more to do with demonstrating comfort than demonstrating actual "rescue skills." Fair enough (although I disagree that teaching those two skills is the appropriate way to enhance "diving comfort" as opposed to requiring your students to make and hold 1 or 2 foot stops for example).

BUT, rescue skills ARE taught and, at least in my perhaps naive opinion, at least within the PADI system, the Open Water student learns the right ones.

Peter, do you have something current that shows the required skills for a PADI OW course? I am looking at something right now that describes the course in detail which includes tired diver tow and cramp removal self/buddy. Is that what you are referring to as rescue skills? That is all I can find with in the course description. I do believe you are correct in saying that you may be naive in believing the PADI is the only agency that teaches proper rescue skills... You just basically bashed every agency except PADI...

 

[TMHeimer]

That or their just anti-social....

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I live in the boonies. Solo diving is often preferable to 150 miles round trip at Canadian gas prices. Most buddies I've been with in "town" have been pretty good.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

That or their just anti-social....

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I live in the boonies. Solo diving is often preferable to 150 miles round trip at Canadian gas prices. Most buddies I've been with in "town" have been pretty good.

I guess I could have included the not a viable option category... 75miles to town? I think that qualifies as BFE lol. Anti-social via geographic location lol.

 

[Scott]

Peter, do you have something current that shows the required skills for a PADI OW course? I am looking at something right now that describes the course in detail which includes tired diver tow and cramp removal self/buddy. Is that what you are referring to as rescue skills? That is all I can find with in the course description. I do believe you are correct in saying that you may be naive in believing the PADI is the only agency that teaches proper rescue skills... You just basically bashed every agency except PADI...

What skills would be considered rescue skills? I would put AAS, CESA, buoyant swimming ascent and even reg recovery as a rescue skill.

 

[boulderjohn]

About the rescue skills...

The key one that keeps getting brought up again and again and again, is the one Peer mentioned--surfacing the unresponsive diver, or, as some others would call it, recovering the corpse.

I am wondering if anyone can show me a single time in the history of diving in which a diver has come across someone lying unconscious on the floor of the ocean or other similar body of water, brought that unresponsive diver to the surface, gone through all the procedures we teach in the Rescue Diver class, and had the unresponsive diver survive. I don't know of any myself.

If that is what you are talking about, then, no PADI does not teach it to OW students. If I am diving with an OW certified student and we become separated to the point that he has to look for me and then find me unconscious at the bottom and cannot bring my corpse to the surface in the prescribed manner--well, it doesn't bother me. I would rather spend class time on more valuable exercises.

I do know that under some circumstances divers afflicted with oxygen toxicity have been surfaced, and I teach that in both my nitrox and advanced nitrox classes.