Diver lost in 100' off Juno Beach, FL

[Seadeuce]

It's amazing how posts can digress!

My original post was based on the claim, by Jupitermermaid, that Nitrox could lead one to a "CO2 overload" and thus not alerting the diver to OOA or LOA.

O2 toxicity is not the issue here (and wasn't for the deceased diver, as she was quite shallow on the ascent phase of her dive when something went wrong) as she would have to breathe the max PPO2 of 1.6 for longer than her bottom time to suffer an O2 hit.

The mechanics of a CO2 hit are well known - exertion/rapid shallow breathing plus a high PPCO2 due to depth - can cause a mental shutdown if breathing is not corrected or shallower depth reached.

As far as the narcs are concerned, we are singing from the same hymn book here. More O2 - less N2 = greater depth reached before the onset of Narcosis.

What we are debating is not applicable to the deceased as she either did not suffer a hit, or had successfully managed to correct the breathing and begin to ascend safely.

What we are debating is the ambiguous point raised by the OP about a richer mix leading to CO2 toxicity - no mention of O2 toxicity - and lack of awareness, or the narcs.

If that point is taken onboard by those who do not understand the mechanics of CO2 toxicity, then they will form the wrong conclusion.

My final point - which I know from my own experience - is that by diving to the appropriate depths for the mix carried, air or Nitrox, one is within the relevant PPO2 limits for the mix. If exertion then occurs and your breathing is erratic you will undergo the same physiological signs and symptoms for increasing PPCO2.
When it hits you it matters little whether or not you have been breathing a weak or rich mix. Your brain begins to close.

Your survival then depends on training and technique, not on the gas supply.

The points you raise are familiar to me. Indeed I first encountered your last one - about a clear head at 140ft with Trimix - in 1987 at a conference that the late Rob Palmer attended.
At the time he was involved in the Andros project (Bahamas) and stated that when you switch to Heliox at 170ft on your descent, you realise just how narced you've been.


Thanks for the conversation.


Seadeuce

 

[mrlipis]

Last I read and remember, it is unknown what causes narcosis. You all speak as thought excess CO2 or nitrogen is the cause of narcosis. If high levels of nitrogen were the cause of narcosis, then breathing nitrox would reduce narcosis and that just isn't the case. Correct me if I am wrong.

Bruce

 

[DandyDon]

Last I read and remember, it is unknown what causes narcosis. You all speak as thought excess CO2 or nitrogen is the cause of narcosis. If high levels of nitrogen were the cause of narcosis, then breathing nitrox would reduce narcosis and that just isn't the case. Correct me if I am wrong.

Bruce

This is not really the thread to debate it, but I understand that Nitrox does not reduce narcosis as O2 can be narcotic at depth as well.

 

[jupitermermaid]

It's amazing how posts can digress!

My original post was based on the claim, by Jupitermermaid, that Nitrox could lead one to a "CO2 overload" and thus not alerting the diver to OOA or LOA.


What we are debating is not applicable to the deceased as she either did not suffer a hit, or had successfully managed to correct the breathing and begin to ascend safely.

What we are debating is the ambiguous point raised by the OP about a richer mix leading to CO2 toxicity - no mention of O2 toxicity - and lack of awareness, or the narcs.

If that point is taken onboard by those who do not understand the mechanics of CO2 toxicity, then they will form the wrong conclusion.

My final point - which I know from my own experience - is that by diving to the appropriate depths for the mix carried, air or Nitrox, one is within the relevant PPO2 limits for the mix. If exertion then occurs and your breathing is erratic you will undergo the same physiological signs and symptoms for increasing PPCO2.



Seadeuce

It was not the use of Nitrox alone that I was referring to. It was the percentage of Nitrox used at a particular depth, and the possibility of task overloading with that depth and mix that I was alluding to. Dan answered your question better than I ever could have. I don't know what argument you're looking for, but, sorry, I don't get into them. I'm merely speculating, thinking out loud, about what COULD have happened, and mentioned upfront that that's all I was doing. I was not attempting to "educate" anyone in any way.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Amid all the speculation, I feel compelled to share what happened that day. BTW, we're all guilty of speculation - I've been trying to figure this out myself. I had posted this on another board and am just copying it over - it was hard enough to write the first time.

Eve had called me early in the week to dive on Friday with a group of our friends that have been diving together for a number of years. All was perfectly normal and we were in a great mood with the 4 day holiday weekend looming. The seas were 2-3 ft rollers, nice and easy. Eve was her usual chatty self as we talked of dives we wanted to do, trips we wanted to make to the Mona Passage and the Solomon Islands, her aging cats and the possible coming storms out there. All was well. Nothing was amiss.

I was part of the first group on the platform as we set up to dive. Eve and Quinn were a little further up the boat and would have been coming in behind me. We were probably in 120ish ft when we first dropped as my max depth was 111ft and I was probably 10-15 ft from the bottom. I immediately started heading just west of north as I had a 33% mix. (Eve's was 32%). Vis at the bottom was maybe 30 ft but it was quite murky in the middle of the water column. I moved into 100ft and was hopscotching some blow outs looking for lobster when Eve and Quinn swam over me giving me her classic parade day, princess wave.

I noted about then that it was pretty sharky. There were several (6-7) dusky sharks that were about 10 ft long and fairly agitated. They were darting around, zipping back and forth. I had my speargun but elected not to shoot anything given the shark activity. Quinn was spearing as were several of the others in our groups so I'm sure that was the stimulus for the activity. There was even a 12 ft hammerhead in the mix.

I hooked up with Eve and Quinn and we all stayed together bouncing from hole to hole. Eve was doing the photog thing. About 35 minutes into the dive we came to our last blow out. Quinn shot a nice hog fish there, I tickled out a nice size lobster. Eve had come down into the blow out and took pictures, then assumed her hovering position over us as we completed our tasks. My bug ended up being an egger. I held it up in the net to show Eve the size and then the eggs. She had her gauge in her hand as we made eye contact. There was no indication of any issues. I took my eyes off of her to free the bug out of my net (it was caught on the horns) and watched to make sure the Quinn had his fish strung and spear gun back together. Maybe 30 seconds. When I looked up she was gone - just like that. Assuming the she had drifted into the murky water and started to ascend, I left Quinn to catch up with her. I never did. I looked for her blue fins, her white tank, her bubbles in the water column but saw none of that. Given the bad vis, I didn't think a thing about it. I figured we meet on the surface. I did a 5 minute hang and was on the surface in 41 minutes with 1200 psi in my tank. The boat was close by picking up divers - I thought Eve, but no. They picked me up and Quinn - just a few feet away- just a minute later. We realized that Eve was not on the boat and we did not see her surface signal anywhere. Other boats in the area were immediately called to be on the look out and the coast gaurd was called well before Eve was "offically" late or overdue. There were probably 6-7 boats, 2 planes and a helicopter searching within minutes. There were divers from other boats dropped in our drop location within 15 minutes of us realizing Eve was missing. We all did 2 more dives looking as well. It was a heart breaking day.

What happened? I wish I knew. It was just that fast. She was there and then she was gone. Having dove with Eve many times, I know we were pretty well matched on air consumption. She never gave any indication that there was an issue or that she was low on air. She could have gotten to us if there was an out of air emergency. Eve carried several signaling devices for both above and below the surface and was very experienced. She would not have hesitated to use them.

What can we learn from this? It could happen to any of us. It could have been me or anyone else on the boat. None of us are getting any younger. I hate like hell that it was my dear friend Eve.

I am truly devastated by her passing. It just doesn't make sense. I've analyzed and re-analyzed this so many times that I'm just sick. I am so grateful she was found. I hope in time there will be some more definitive answers to provide closure. I'm equallly grateful no one was hurt while looking for her. Incidentally, all of the coast guard, marine patrol and PBSO officials involved were very professional, efficient, respectful and sensitive to our loss. I really appreciated that too.

Her smile, her sense of humor, her wave, her many Eve-isms will be greatly missed. Our Seafish Girl, Mermaid and Dive Diva can never be replaced.

We've got a great group of experienced divers in this community who are all rocked by this tragedy. Thanks to all of you for your support and thanks to all of you outside the South FL area for your good wishes and condolences.

Take care, stay fit and be safe out there. I never want to go through this again.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

What was the current speed when she was hanging above you and Quin? Why would she not stay in the pothole (and out of the current) in order to wait until the two of you were done with your tasks? Did she hang above you while you went into the earlier blow outs?

It just seems funny that she would choose to hang above you since the current is almost always strong there and hanging stationary above two divers who are tucked into a hole would require a lot of kicking normally.

Did you at any time compare pressure guages during the dive?

Also, one last question: You told us what your maximum depth was, but what was the average depth? Was the dive constrained to above 100 feet for the most part? This seems to be relevant since she was diving 32%.

I hope my questions don't sound critical; I have dove that area many times and I know that many people follow a very loose buddy system when doing the hunting-drifting-lobstering dives.

 

[danvolker]

It's amazing how posts can digress!

The points you raise are familiar to me. Indeed I first encountered your last one - about a clear head at 140ft with Trimix - in 1987 at a conference that the late Rob Palmer attended.
At the time he was involved in the Andros project (Bahamas) and stated that when you switch to Heliox at 170ft on your descent, you realise just how narced you've been.


Thanks for the conversation.


Seadeuce

Seaduce,
Hope you don't think I was trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to cover some issues that can effect many of the divers who will continue to do dives like the hole in the wall, in the future. And Nitrox use on dives like this "CAN" be dangerous, if it is mixed for the wrong MOD.

This ox tox reaction can be delayed, which is one reason I included it in my "possible" scenarios....As an example, about 8 years ago I had a call from a good friend that I freedive with, that his fiance had not come back from a tech training dive with her instructor--and he was asking me if I could show up with my WKPP budies, and find her body....a very sad event, much like the one of this thread.

The instructor had her on a 280 foot deep dive, and was buddied to her, and there were 2 other students. On ascent, if there was one single job the instructor SHOULD HAVE handled, it would have been watching Jane's gas switch, where she went from the bottom mix ( trimix) to her travel mix, which I remember to be 50% Nitrox, at about 80 feet deep. The instructor ALSO had her using 80/20, as the final deco mix ( another stupidity, as 100% at 20 feet is the way this should be done)...In any event, the instructor did not watch, and Jane hit her 80/20 bottle at 80 or 90 feet. Ox tox did not happen immediately. She did a slow ascent to 50 feet, then began each of her stops--say 6 minutes at 50, 8 at 40, something along these lines...When her instructor reached his 30 foot stop, Jane was heading to her 20 foot stop, and then suddenly, while posed to inflate her wings further( hand on inflator), she began sinking. She dropped below the instructor, and began dropping fast, quickly passing the 2 other students who were at thier 40 foot stop....One of the 2 students rushed to reach her, realizing she had obviously suffered some catastrophic event. Unfortunately, the student had a sinus block, his mask filled with blood, and he had to abort his rescue attempt. The instructor, Dereck McNulty, watched her fall, and said later, that he was afraid he did not have enough gas to help her ( which we found out to have been a huge lie--he had far more gas than I used for the recovery).
Jane fell to the bottom, and it was the next day before we could look for her, near the RB Johnson/Cory'n Chriss wrecks. Her long blond hair was flowing in the breeze of current, and her hand was still on the inflator, as if she was about to ascend.
Jane had been on a toxic PP of O2 for over 20 minutes, because she was wrongly on her 80/20 mix. She did not seize or even feel badly right away--the effects, which came on over 20 minutes after she began this mix, came on so suddenly she probably did not even realize it happened--she just went "out".
The delay of the oxtox onset, in this example, is the issue I am concerned with in the current tragedy. It "could" have been oxtox for Eve, given a very hot mix for this depth, and the exertion level it appears she could have been under ( which could make a mix that would normally have no toxic effects, suddenly toxic). Such an event could occur even once she reached 40 or 50 feet, since the delayed onset can occur.
Of course, this could have had nothing to do with the accident, perhaps it was something else none of us have even thought of yet---but for those using hot Nitrox mixes on dives over 115 feet deep, this is something to consider....

Regards,
Dan V

 

[rknazik]

It's amazing how posts can digress!

My original post was based on the claim, by Jupitermermaid, that Nitrox could lead one to a "CO2 overload" and thus not alerting the diver to OOA or LOA.

O2 toxicity is not the issue here (and wasn't for the deceased diver, as she was quite shallow on the ascent phase of her dive when something went wrong) as she would have to breathe the max PPO2 of 1.6 for longer than her bottom time to suffer an O2 hit.

I do not know what actually happened to Eve. But I do know that diver's have had O2 toxicity convulsions at PPOs as low as 1.4. Length of bottom time also contributes to the possibility of toxing, as does exercise. You claim to be an instructor, yet you don't seem to understand that there is no black and white line in this area. I hope you don't teach your students that they can breath a PPO of 1.6 at depth with no risk, that is absolutely not true. When I do this dive (Hole in the wall) I do it on a 28/20 mix, and I don't fight the current.

 

[CaribeDiver]

Besides the loss of a great person, it sickens me when I read the malicious gossip and mis-information being posted on this board. Scuba Board used to be about divers asking questions and relating honest, true information.
Eve was a very special person for all who knew her. She was a safe diver with thousands of logged dives and many years of diving under her belt.
She does not deserve the false & speculative information being posted when she's not here to defend herself. Who has the right to make up something to talk about just so they can just be heard. Isn't it better to show a little respect and let Eve Rest In Peace.
We may not ever know what happened to Eve and the autopsy hasn't come back.
Don't disrespect her by adding or responding to further posts about air mixes and speculation.
Eve is at peace now and she was doing what she loved to do.
Please stop filling the board with this garbage about her.

 

[DandyDon]

Besides the loss of a great person, it sickens me when I read the malicious gossip and mis-information being posted on this board. Scuba Board used to be about divers asking questions and relating honest, true information.
Eve was a very special person for all who knew her. She was a safe diver with thousands of logged dives and many years of diving under her belt.
She does not deserve the false & speculative information being posted when she's not here to defend herself. Who has the right to make up something to talk about just so they can just be heard. Isn't it better to show a little respect and let Eve Rest In Peace.
We may not ever know what happened to Eve and the autopsy hasn't come back.
Don't disrespect her by adding or responding to further posts about air mixes and speculation.
Eve is at peace now and she was doing what she loved to do.
Please stop filling the board with this garbage about her.

Welcome to SB...

The purpose of this forum is for others to learn and avoid similar mishaps and possible mistakes. We seldom get all the facts to work with and we may not here unless others like yourself closer will post them, but we do what we can to learn. Speculation is natural and can be educational even if it may not be the actual case.

I am sorry about the loss of a diver who does indeed sound like a very special person, but I am also sorry you think that she would not want us to discuss the incident that just should not have happened to one so experienced, to learn, to avoid. I think she would but I am speculating there too; I can only say that I would if it were me.

We also have a Condolences thread in the Passings forum and you are very welcome to post about your friend there, too...

 

[dave4868]

Besides the loss of a great person, it sickens me when I read the malicious gossip and mis-information being posted on this board. Scuba Board used to be about divers asking questions and relating honest, true information.
Eve was a very special person for all who knew her. She was a safe diver with thousands of logged dives and many years of diving under her belt.
She does not deserve the false & speculative information being posted when she's not here to defend herself. Who has the right to make up something to talk about just so they can just be heard. Isn't it better to show a little respect and let Eve Rest In Peace.
We may not ever know what happened to Eve and the autopsy hasn't come back.
Don't disrespect her by adding or responding to further posts about air mixes and speculation.
Eve is at peace now and she was doing what she loved to do.
Please stop filling the board with this garbage about her.

You're obviously hurting, but the speculation here has been useful and respectful, I think.

None of it has been specifically critical of the deceased and all of it is aimed at making diving safer.

The objective nature of the speculation doesn't mean it's uncaring.

Dave C