I have no beef with shops not wanting fills but I question the "$5 profit" statement. I can get a faber HP100 with pro valve from my LDS for approximately $450. The same tank on Leisurepro is $350 (also with pro valve). I understand LP gets some volume discounts that my local shop simply can't get but is it really 25%? (I'm honestly asking because that seems unlikely to me but I'm not in this business or any other retail business.)Dude, it's far more fun for someone to call you ignorant and corrupt!
Dive tank permanent expiration?
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The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Steal tanks are different than Aluminum tanks. And Leisure Pro has a secret price list we never get to see. I can show you a dozen items on their site where they are selling gear for cheaper than what we buy it. It's a bone of contention with a lot of shops. At any rate, $450 for a tank is too much.
Selling price is the result of several components. LP certainly has a big volume and will get a more favorable multiplier. They probably have faster inventory turn over and are able to work a thinner margin. Their inbound deliveries will be at least in pallet loads and that drops freight.
I don't follow the Faber product but $450 is high for the Worthington/X-Scuba comertitor.
Pete
DaleC
Contributor
It's interesting to consider the cost issue from different sides. As a consumer, I see shops making a decision that retires tanks prematurely without cause. While the profit to the shop/tank may be small, the cost to the consumer is massive. It equals all tanks pre 1990 (if that's the cutoff) multiplied by the cost of those tanks at retail prices. That's a big number so I guess a discussion related to it's necessity is valid.
Ultimately I do believe the guy with the compressor gets to make the decision but let's not pretend there isn't a substantual cost attached to it.
Someone show me one piece of evidence that my 1989 Catalina Al 80 (that has passed hydro and vis) poses a threat that suggests it not be filled.
Risk is also an interesting comparison. I wonder how many shops that refuse to fill also promote rapid cert. courses or learning to dive without even knowing how to swim? How many new divers die during training/year compared to fillers from exploding Al tanks. That would be an interesting ratio to visualize and an equally interesting discussion regarding profit motive.
Ultimately I do believe the guy with the compressor gets to make the decision but let's not pretend there isn't a substantual cost attached to it.
Someone show me one piece of evidence that my 1989 Catalina Al 80 (that has passed hydro and vis) poses a threat that suggests it not be filled.
Risk is also an interesting comparison. I wonder how many shops that refuse to fill also promote rapid cert. courses or learning to dive without even knowing how to swim? How many new divers die during training/year compared to fillers from exploding Al tanks. That would be an interesting ratio to visualize and an equally interesting discussion regarding profit motive.
elmer fudd
Contributor
I've only seen shops refuse to fill old aluminum tanks and tanks with bushings. I've never had a problem getting my old steel tanks filled.
If I ran a shop, I'd be a little hesitant about filling old aluminum tanks too, regardless of the alloy. Aluminum is just far more susceptible to fatigue. There are steel diving tanks still in use that were made back in the fifties and welding tanks that are over 100 years old. I really doubt aluminum tanks will ever have that kind of longevity.
If I ran a shop, I'd be a little hesitant about filling old aluminum tanks too, regardless of the alloy. Aluminum is just far more susceptible to fatigue. There are steel diving tanks still in use that were made back in the fifties and welding tanks that are over 100 years old. I really doubt aluminum tanks will ever have that kind of longevity.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Let's be Frank (like Wookie). Most Local Dive Shops were created on the premise of "living the dream". Profits and profit motive are eclipsed by visions (delusions) of fun and adventure where the lucky few get to make a living doing what they love. Running a dive op is a tough business and it's hard to walk that fine line where you keep the majority of risks at bay while not pissing off your customers by being a bit overly aggressive in their eyes. For many shops, staying alive means making some hard, hard choices which include how they make training at least somewhat profitable for them. Sure, they might do it for the love of the sport, but they have to be able to turn on the lights at the same time.
DaleC
Contributor
I agree Pete. And as I said, the guy with the compressor gets to make the call. A shop could decide to only cater to tech divers, divers from a certain agency, divers with only certain brands of gear etc... and if the market bears, so be it. I just think it's important (intellectually speaking) to remember that the decision to not fill Al tanks past a certain date regardless of alloy, vis or hydro is based upon personal "feelings", not any sort of factual evidence and that an appeal to "safety" should be measured against the other sort of risks divers are exposed to. Otherwise we encounter the sort of situation I did a couple of summers ago while on vacation. I took my steel 72 tanks in for a fill and was told that all shops in the region would not fill tanks older than 20 years; regardless of make, material or alloy.
Being part of a profession means you follow guidelines and protocols and base safety decisions on some sort of process using fact based measures. It would curious to see how many shops that won't fill tanks also don't have a proper containment system for the tanks they do fill. What if some sort of regulatory body stepped in and forced all those shops to conform to some sort of arbitrary "safe" standard (as the shops have done in regards to the tanks). No license to fill unless the workspace is made safe. Bye bye old fill systems. Then the crying from shops about costs would start.
But as long as the customers footing the bill, it's a small price to pay for safety.
Being part of a profession means you follow guidelines and protocols and base safety decisions on some sort of process using fact based measures. It would curious to see how many shops that won't fill tanks also don't have a proper containment system for the tanks they do fill. What if some sort of regulatory body stepped in and forced all those shops to conform to some sort of arbitrary "safe" standard (as the shops have done in regards to the tanks). No license to fill unless the workspace is made safe. Bye bye old fill systems. Then the crying from shops about costs would start.
But as long as the customers footing the bill, it's a small price to pay for safety.
I disagree with the premise that a tank manufactured pre-1990 is more likely to fail than one a few years old. This is poppycock!
There are simply too many factors other than age to consider, and while it may be correct 90 percent of the time to make an assumption that a cylinder stamped 2011 is unlikely to rupture when filled CORRECTLY AND TO ITS WORKING PRESSURE, there are no guarantees at all.
There are simply too many factors other than age to consider, and while it may be correct 90 percent of the time to make an assumption that a cylinder stamped 2011 is unlikely to rupture when filled CORRECTLY AND TO ITS WORKING PRESSURE, there are no guarantees at all.
captain
Contributor
I have two of the so said can't be hydroed/used Navy 6061 80 cu/ft aluminum tanks made of 6061. All the original hydro number are stamped on these tank so you can compare the results of any hydro to the original and the last hydro I had done on them 3 years ago yielded the same results as the original hydro. Also the eddy current test, though not required on 6061 tanks was also negative. These tanks were made in 1967, before any aluminum tanks were offered for sale on the civilian market.. Also there is no DOT restriction on the use of bushings in tanks provided they are rated for use at the tank's working pressure.
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