Question Faber sold in Europe can't be tested in the US?

[Stoo]

Even if I had a friend with a compressor, I'm fairly certain it is illegal to transport these in the US pressurized.

Ya you're probably right but I can't imagine your average copper would know or care...

 

[Scuba-74]

Ya you're probably right but I can't imagine your average copper would know or care...

Not sure if you read the whole (or most) of this thread, but that first post was written before I knew I was scammed.

Pursuing legal action now. When the dust settles, will decide what to do with the tanks, but I won't be using them for scuba, for sure.

UPD: and no, a friend with a compressor is not in the cards for now.

 

[Scuba-74]

This post is intended to compile in one place the references to the specific sections of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) that specify how the cylinders must be marked for them to be legal to be filled and transported in the US, as well as an explicit rule that they can't be transported otherwise.

I'm preparing for a small claims court date, and couldn't find all this info in one place anywhere, so hopefully it may help someone doing this research in the future.

---

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 49:

· Part 173, Subpart G, § 173.301 specifies the requirements for shipment of compressed gases and other hazardous materials in cylinders
· Part 178, Subpart C specifies the requirements for cylinders used to transport hazardous materials
· Part 180 focuses on the continuing qualification and maintenance of packagings, including subpart C on cylinders.

Part 173 (General Requirements For Shipments And Packagings):
· § 173.301 General requirements for shipment of compressed gases and other hazardous materials in cylinders, UN pressure receptacles, and spherical pressure vessels
(a).(1) Compressed gases must be in UN pressure receptacles built in accordance with the UN standards or in metal cylinders and containers built in accordance with the DOT and ICC specifications and part 178 of this subchapter in effect at the time of manufacture or CRC, BTC, CTC or TC specification, and requalified and marked as prescribed in subpart C in part 180 of this subchapter, if applicable.
(j) Non-specification cylinders in domestic use.
… a filled cylinder manufactured to other than a DOT specification or a UN standard in accordance with part 178 of this subchapter, or a DOT exemption or special permit cylinder or a cylinder used as a fire extinguisher in conformance with § 173.309(a), may not be transported to, from, or within the United States.
Part 178 (Specifications for Packagings):
Subpart C—Specifications for Cylinders
§ 178.35 General requirements for specification cylinders.
(f) Markings. Markings on a DOT Specification cylinder must conform to applicable requirements.
(1) Each cylinder must be marked with the following information:
(i) The DOT specification marking must appear first, followed immediately by the service pressure. For example, DOT-3A1800.
(ii) The serial number must be placed just below or immediately following the DOT specification marking.
(iii) A symbol (letters) must be placed just below, immediately before or following the serial number. Other variations in sequence of markings are authorized only when necessitated by a lack of space. The symbol and numbers must be those of the manufacturer. The symbol must be registered with the Associate Administrator; duplications are not authorized.
(iv) The inspector's official mark and date of test (such as 5-95 for May 1995) must be placed near the serial number. This information must be placed so that dates of subsequent tests can be easily added. An example of the markings prescribed in this paragraph (f)(1) is as follows:
DOT-3A1800-1234-XY
AB 5-95
Where:
DOT-3A = specification number; 1800 = service pressure; 1234 = serial number; XY = symbol of manufacturer; AB = inspector's mark; 5-95 = date of test
Part 180 (Continuing Qualification and Maintenance of Packagings):
Subpart C—Qualification, Maintenance and Use of Cylinders
§ 180.205 General requirements for requalification of specification cylinders.
(c) Periodic requalification of cylinders. Each cylinder bearing a DOT, CRC, BTC, or CTC specification marking must be requalified and marked as specified in the requalification table in § 180.209(a) or requalified and marked by a facility registered by Transport Canada in accordance with the Transport Canada TDG Regulations (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter).

Specification under which cylinder was made	Minimum test pressure (psig)2	Requalification period (years)
3	3000 psig	5.
3A, 3AA	5/3 times service pressure, except non-corrosive service (see § 180.209(g))	5, 10, or 12 (see § 180.209(b), (f), (h), and (j)).
3AL	5/3 times service pressure	5 or 12 (see § 180.209(j) and (m)4).
…	…	…

§ 180.209(b): stipulates cylinders that may be requalified every ten years instead of every five years exclude cylinders used for underwater breathing.

 

[Zef]

You might want to change a few words in your small claims court filing. There is nothing illegal about "using" the tanks you purchased....you can certainly "use" them. The fact that they can't be transported in a vehicle, (re-)inspected, or otherwise serviced due to DOT and industry regulations does not prohibit their actual use....if you are stating the person who sold them to you, sold you something you can't legally use, your filing statement might undermine your case against them.

Thought anyone?

-Z

 

[Scuba-74]

You might want to change a few words in your small claims court filing. There is nothing illegal about "using" the tanks you purchased....you can certainly "use" them. The fact that they can't be transported in a vehicle, (re-)inspected, or otherwise serviced due to DOT and industry regulations does not prohibit their actual use....if you are stating the person who sold them to you, sold you something you can't legally use, your filing statement might undermine your case against them.

Thought anyone?

-Z

They can't be transported to, from, or within the United States filled. It actually doesn't specify in a vehicle or not. If it comes to it, I'll elaborate. But you are right, they can be used, just not for their intended purpose unless I own a beachfront property and a compressor...

The example of the language I use in the claim statement, which I already filed: "...defendant: 1) admitted that he knew that these cylinders can't undergo required testing in the US or be safely and legally used for scuba..."

 

[rjack321]

They can't be transported to, from, or within the United States filled. It actually doesn't specify in a vehicle or not. If it comes to it, I'll elaborate. But you are right, they can be used, just not for their intended purpose unless I own a beachfront property and a compressor...

The example of the language I use in the claim statement, which I already filed: "...defendant: 1) admitted that he knew that these cylinders can't undergo required testing in the US or be safely and legally used for scuba..."

For the purpose of your small claims filing, I 100% agree with you. The cylinders were fraudulently misrepresented and "can't be used"

 

[Zef]

They can't be transported to, from, or within the United States filled. It actually doesn't specify in a vehicle or not. If it comes to it, I'll elaborate. But you are right, they can be used, just not for their intended purpose unless I own a beachfront property and a compressor...

The example of the language I use in the claim statement, which I already filed: "...defendant: 1) admitted that he knew that these cylinders can't undergo required testing in the US or be safely and legally used for scuba..."

Just to be clear about a couple of things...perhaps this is just semantics or being pedantic but it is good for discussion:

If you are a recreational diver, transporting your own cylinder(s), the total weight of the cylinder(s) + gas is less than 1000lbs, and there is no "commerce" activity involved, then you are exempt from the regulations that govern the transportation of a gas cylinder as one is defined in CFR173.115.

You can therefore transport and use your cylinders without violating the law and therefore you can safely and legally use your cylinders for scuba in the US.

You might not be able to obtain an annual visual inspection (VIP) of your cylinder, but that is not governed by law/regulation in the US, it is a scuba industry standard that shops have decided to impose/enforce and most likely shop insurance providers mandate that a cylinder have a current VIP verified before filling the cylinder

The hydrostatic test conducted every 5 years is required by law/regulation for a commercial activity to fill the cylinder. One can certainly fill their own cylinder and never have their cylinder tested. I am not recommending this, but it is certainly not a violation of the laws governing the use, storage, or transportation of a gas cylinder containing pressurized breathable air.

-Z

p.s., I am not a lawyer, but I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

 

[Zef]

They can't be transported to, from, or within the United States filled. It actually doesn't specify in a vehicle or not. If it comes to it, I'll elaborate. But you are right, they can be used, just not for their intended purpose unless I own a beachfront property and a compressor...

The example of the language I use in the claim statement, which I already filed: "...defendant: 1) admitted that he knew that these cylinders can't undergo required testing in the US or be safely and legally used for scuba..."

You need to read 49 CFR 171.1(d)(6):

§ 171.1: Applicability of Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) to persons and functions.

171.1(d) : Functions not subject to the requirements of the Hazardous Material Regulations. The following are examples of activities to which the HMR do not apply:

(6) Transportation of a hazardous material by an individual for non-commercial purposes in a private motor vehicle, including a leased or rented motor vehicle.

-Z

 

[Nitrogenius]

You need to read 49 CFR 171.1(d)(6):

§ 171.1: Applicability of Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) to persons and functions.

171.1(d) : Functions not subject to the requirements of the Hazardous Material Regulations. The following are examples of activities to which the HMR do not apply:

(6) Transportation of a hazardous material by an individual for non-commercial purposes in a private motor vehicle, including a leased or rented motor vehicle.

-Z

I agree. This is very similar to regulations in Europe.. All regulations that exist are meant for commercial purposes and transports etc. Nothing is defined for personal use.. Some draw from that everything goes in personal use others say also in personal use one should adhere the next sensible exiting regulations which would be the commercial ones.

By the way I think (when talking sense into a testing station, one could likely get the cilinders tested. Visual inspections can be done by oneself easily as well.. You just would not get a CE stamp as only the stamp would make it illegal not the test per se..

So the usability arguments is (depending how well the judge will understand the regulations) ratrher weak.. What stays though is the argument of misrepresntation and the latter is very strang and with the respecitve evidence, so there should be no doubt tht the guy should be forced to take them back and refund the money..