description thoughts for new subforum

[shugar]

ummmm couldn't we all just use my description, say "thanks jag", give me a medal and move on?

(sorry still not feeling particularly creative to come up w/ another one... i want to dive... sigh)

Jag

 

[Kim]

ummmm couldn't we all just use my description, say "thanks jag", give me a medal and move on?

(sorry still not feeling particularly creative to come up w/ another one... i want to dive... sigh)

Jag

Actually jag...I liked yours. I'm not feeling that creative today either - I'll have another look in here tomorrow...I think I'll just go to bed now.

 

[paolov]

how about a blinking sticky icon or title if colored fonts can't be used on titles?

oh anyway this is not about stickies.....

I know...that's exactly the kind of thing that happens. However we can all only go so far to make things clear - the DAN SEAP thread has been stickied since the beginning. If people simply don't read what's there then I think it's their own fault. It's like that old saying:
"You can please some of the people all the time,
You can please all the people some of the time,
You can't please all the people all the time."

 

[CLA]

Kim, believe it or not, I did read that post and agree that you very clearly explained the reasons for setting up a local language sub-forum. I understand your points (but don’t necessarily agree with all of them), and was willing to give the experiment a try In fact, I even voted in the name poll.

In your original post, however, you did say you would ask everyone to only post in English once the BP was created. So by making this post a sticky everyone should assume it’s already the request you were referring to? Maybe the title should be more specific with a reference to the language used in posts in the PPD or in BP. Also, I’m not trying to be nitpicky but some people might take this announcement the wrong way – because it seems more like a warning or notification rather than a request. If someone doesn’t comply and speaks too lengthily in a local language, his post might be moved or deleted no matter how important or urgent it was.

This brings me to another important point (which might have been made already). What if the original poster posted in English and everyone replied in Tagalog. Will his post be moved to the local language sub-forum? If so, let’s just hope the OP will be allowed in the sub-forum and can find it there. Also, let’s just hope it wasn’t a very pressing issue because other divers with similar concerns will be less likely to come across it, the deeper it gets buried in the sub-forums.

Lastly, there may be really juicy diving topics posted in the local language forum that other SB members may not get to read- simply because they’re “hidden” in an opt-in forum. Sayang naman, diba (now wouldn’t that be a waste)? Some non-local diver might find the topic very useful.

Sorry for adding to your headache. We must appear like such ingrates but most of us think you’re doing a great job and appreciate the tremendous effort you put in (I’m surprised you "didn’t boot out months ago"). This must be one of the most difficult moderating jobs in SB (next to the guy who handles the MOF/NMOF thread) and I’m so glad “hindi ka pikon” (can someone please translate that phrase for me?).

Cathy

 

[CLA]

ummmm couldn't we all just use my description, say "thanks jag", give me a medal and move on?

Jag

When Jag posted this thread I thought he was asking for comments about the BP’s description. Now this thread and our responses to it may seem trivial to some and “water under the bridge” because of Kim’s previous explanation in the sticky. However, I think the description is even more important and potentially more controversial than the sub-forum’s name because people just wandering by are more likely to read forum descriptions rather than stickys. Kim, my comments in this thread were not about previous discussions re BP but mainly about how a new SBmember or visitor might interpret the descriptions written under the forum names. Will he understand what it’s about? Would he feel welcome or would he be put-off by the description? What image will it convey or imply about that forum or about SB itself. Like I said, it was fine with me but some people actually “hated it”. I’m thankful to Jag that he posted this thread because it brought out some controversies that may have been overlooked

 

[CLA]

Hi Cathy,

The idea for what I will call the "common areas" of the board is that they will operate primarily in English, but taking a step to prohibiting the use of other languages in these areas with a provision in the TOS is taking this to an entirely different level and we do not wish to be that restrictive. Having a subforum for "local language and dialects" is something that I believe brings us to something in between.
Christian

Christian, thanks for being open to our ideas. Your willingness to listen brought out some ideas and sentiments that some people were hesitant to discuss. I hope I did not sound hostile in the posts but someone has to play devils advocate. To be honest I did not understand your explanation on why you can’t write a clear provision or notice re posting in English in the TOS or in a more general forum. Don't you prefer that English be spoken in all other forums – what you called the "common forums"? You say that SB does not want to appear "restrictive" --but by posting that rule as a sticky (it is indeed a rule because you expect us to comply and there are consequences if we don’t) in a local club does it make it any less restrictive? If people start conversing in local dialects in other forums will the threads be moved to the local language sub-forum too? Or will they be deleted? Forgive me for having to point this out but deleting someone’s thread might seem disrespectful and inconsiderate not just to the poster but also to others who were following it. It might cause even more misunderstanding and confusion than mixed languages in posts.

 

[headhunter]

Christian, thanks for being open to our ideas. Your willingness to listen brought out some ideas and sentiments that some people were hesitant to discuss. I hope I did not sound hostile in the posts but someone has to play devils advocate. To be honest I did not understand your explanation on why you can’t write a clear provision or notice re posting in English in the TOS or in a more general forum. Don't you prefer that English be spoken in all other forums – except for the local language forums? You say that SB does not want to appear restrictive --but by posting that rule as a sticky (it is indeed a rule because you expect us to comply and there are consequences if we don’t) in a local club does it make it any less restrictive? If people start conversing in local dialects in other forums will the threads be moved to the local language sub-forum too? Or will they be deleted? Forgive me for having to point this out but deleting someone’s thread might seem disrespectful and inconsiderate not just to the poster but also to others who were following it. It might cause even more misunderstanding and confusion than mixed languages in posts.

Hi Cathy,

Keep in mind that everything is in a state of transition with regard to languages and dialects. We're in the process of figuring it out now through this experiment with the new BP subforum.

Things may start one way and end up a different way when we see how things are working out.

Remember that currently BP is the ONLY non-english speaking forum on ScubaBoard. To add something about "English only" to the TOS right now would leave everyone EXCEPT the people in the Philippines with no place to ever use anything but English.

In the future, we may add a provision to the TOS about the use of other languages in other parts of ScubaBoard. For now it does not seem necessary, since the only forum affected is your forum as the pilot for a new model.

This also means that, for now, those of you in the Philippines will be treated differently when it comes to local languages and dialects than the rest of the world. Please do not think of any of this as being either "fair" or "unfair". This is for the purpose of creating a model that can then be used all over the world. The fact that things will be done differently for you is what makes this a pilot program.

By the way, once we figure out what works best for your region, we will not immediately open up a forum for every language on the planet. They will be opened as needed. Once we do open a new forum, then that new addition to the model will help continue to develop the model based on the new challenges in that new region. Some of those new developments may be used in your region to keep things similar across the entire board. We don't want to do things differently in every region, because it would become a nightmare to manage. Of course, none of this will happen over night.

To answer some of your questions.

The following only applies to local languages in the Philippines for now since you are the only ones with your own local language forum.

If people start conversing in local languages in other forums one of two things will happen. If the thread was started in another language/dialect, then it will be moved to the BP subforum. If a post in another language is made in reply to a thread that is in English, then it will be deleted.

Here is the exception to the rule. If a discussion is taking place on another part of the board and someone from the Philippines is having difficulty understanding something in particular because it is in English, then you might want to try to quickly help them understand by using a few words or a phrase or two in the local language or dialect. If this starts to become an entire converstion, then that part of the thread will probably be split and moved to the BP forum. The other possibility is to have this help take place in PMs. At this point, we'd like to leave this flexible.

For now, the rules will be created and modified as we go. That is why I'm calling this an experiment.

I expect that we will have some misunderstandings and confusion as we learn what the best ways to handle each situation will be. So, while we all work through this together, we must be sure to always treat each other with dignity and respect. To do otherwise will help no one. Just for the record, I believe that everyone has been treating each other with dignity and respect. I'm not saying any of this because I think anyone has done otherwise.

I'll end with sharing with you that we are not looking to create volumes of rules for making a huge "rule book". The more simple we can make this the better. These are some basic guidelines that we are establishing now. We will want to leave a bit of flexibility in all of this because what should be done will vary depending on the circumstances surrounding each situation. In fact, how we feel about much of this "theory" will probaby change.

I hope this helps increase understanding about what we are trying to do here.

Christian

 

[paolov]

under the menu of the forums you would see the options

Forums Scubaboard UserCP New Posts Calendar Search Quick Links Log Out

under Scubaboard option, active topics Last day

and

New Posts

and

the homepage www.scubaboard.com, Latest Threads


you would see that the most recent posts are shown there.

now assuming you know these links (alot of people do use these links) you would take a look at these and once you open up these threads you see most of them in a foreign language using romanized letters (it turns out to be PPDs exchanges - tagalog and even local terminologies of double meaning)

now being unfamiliar with the language you would opt-out of scubaboard if you do not know that PPD is only just one section of SB.

it just so happens when we PPD log on and we hug the latest threads.....

this now becomes a deterent to the rest of majority of english only people.

so what the FORUM OWNERS (thru their representatives - MODs) are doing is to set up a system (sub forums) whereby we may continue to post in tagalog or dialects but it would not be shown in the threads as mentioned above. HOWEVER the main section of PPD would still be seen and because we PPDs are very friendly we do not want to alienate other potential dive buddies coming to our PPD Dive-O-Ramas hence we would be typing in english in the main section of PPD.

now how is that for the reason of the sub-forums .

now imagine this, what if the other parts of the world do as we do, type in local language and characters. then SB would no longer appeal to majority of people then advertisers would pull out support and SB would shut down......

i believe we do not like that to happen after all we have made friends thru this FORUM and in gratitude for the friendships we have fostered i strongly suggest that we abide by the OWNERS wishes.

ok ba?

 

[Kim]

I’m not trying to be nitpicky but some people might take this announcement the wrong way – because it seems more like a warning or notification rather than a request. If someone doesn’t comply and speaks too lengthily in a local language, his post might be moved or deleted no matter how important or urgent it was.

It was intended as a notification. If a post is important or urgent then it almost certainly should be in English or many people won't be able to understand it.

This brings me to another important point (which might have been made already). What if the original poster posted in English and everyone replied in Tagalog. Will his post be moved to the local language sub-forum? If so, let’s just hope the OP will be allowed in the sub-forum and can find it there. Also, let’s just hope it wasn’t a very pressing issue because other divers with similar concerns will be less likely to come across it, the deeper it gets buried in the sub-forums.

Again, if someone asks a question in English it's a fair bet they won't understand answers in Tagalog. If everyone answered his question in Tagalog how welcome do you think the OP would feel?

Lastly, there may be really juicy diving topics posted in the local language forum that other SB members may not get to read- simply because they’re “hidden” in an opt-in forum. Sayang naman, diba (now wouldn’t that be a waste)? Some non-local diver might find the topic very useful.

Yes there may be such posts. If they are in Tagalog though again, a great many people would be excluded from reading them anyway.

Sorry for adding to your headache. We must appear like such ingrates but most of us think you’re doing a great job and appreciate the tremendous effort you put in (I’m surprised you "didn’t boot out months ago"). This must be one of the most difficult moderating jobs in SB (next to the guy who handles the MOF/NMOF thread) and I’m so glad “hindi ka pikon” (can someone please translate that phrase for me?).

The MOF/NMOF is a walk in the park!

 

[Kim]

Cathy - Just a couple more things to try to allay your concerns. First of all I think it is a good idea to make the description as useful as possible (the thread topic). I think that some of the ideas in this thread do that already. I know that Christian is taking them onboard and I'm sure the description will be changed soon to reflect that.

As far as the purpose of all this goes I also think that we have made that rather clear. This is supposed to make things better and easier for everyone - not the reverse. As I originally stated, and Christian has re-affirmed, nothing is 'set in stone' yet. If we discover problems that we didn't think about then we will address them as they occur. Personally I think that that is a far easier approach to this than trying to forsee everything that might happen before it does and laying down lots of rules that might not even be required. This idea is simple really - please use English in the main forum so that everyone across SB can understand, and speak whatever you like in the sub-forum which is opt-in so that we don't get a situation as Paolov just described. There is nothing in all of this that is intended to be punitive or restrictive - we just need to manage the whole board in such a way that everyone can use it without problems, but still let people have areas where they can use it in language specific ways. No-one is going to be punished for anything - we just might move the occasional thread or delete the occasional post to keep things tidy.