Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[fjpatrum]

I just did a search on three search engines (cave diving current changes) what I found had to do with the direction of water flow and not the hazard that I described (which makes my point). I know that most people (myself included) often try to 'make their case' in a discussion. However in this one, I believe that you are missing the bus.

My example was an illustration of one hazard, in one specific area. I could start listing hundreds of other examples that are likely unknown to anyone without a similar experience (everyone doesn't write a book). How could you know about these? What are the words that you would type into the search engine? That's why the term "you don't know, what you don't know" is often appropriate.

Once you have a good base of skill and knowledge (someone you trust should tell you when your there, or perhaps you already are?), get a Mentor/Instructor and dive. Increase your experience and you'll be surprised what you don't know. I'm continually learning (mainly through experience) and I've done this for a living for the past 40 years.

You and Bob seem to both reading the same thing with my posts. You both are taking specifics and focusing on one aspect that I mention rather than using the generic "this could happen". Of course you can't know every possible permutation of scenarios by researching online. My point was that your statement and Bob's statement below yours about current changes at a specific site, are now known. No, you might not know the exact time of current shifts, but it's a known fact that it happens at both of the locations you two have used and it can then be planned for and considered in the risk assessment. "Having the chops to deal with it" as Bob suggests isn't the same as knowing you should expect something. As I've stated several times that's practical experience, not planning.

At this point I will stop trying to explain the difference of what I'm saying and what others seem to be getting from what I'm saying. Obviously we have a mis-communication.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

This one is about exceeding your training. It's a valid question and does not need to be hijacked.

How can you know if you've exceeded your "training" if you don't have a grasp on what that term means?

 

[BilgeRat57]

I agree with you DA Aquamaster. I am an AOW but have a few hundred dives and keep company with professionals, and ask when I do not fully realize or understand a concept. Even when the vis is terrible, I practice my Nav and other crafts a good diver needs and should do instead of seeing the negative side of a not too fun dive. Experience counts for a lot. I was an underground miner, working at 3000 feet down in total darkness with my light and explosives. Did that many years before moving back to CA. Pressure plays the same game down there, but not so extreme as diving, but no deco. I have been in company with divers that were "DM" Certified but not much experience. Some thrashed about a lot and had trouble with buoyancy and other little issues. I guess it goes the same as my dad used to say "Knowledge is a good thing, but a whole lot of knowledge and no wisdom and less experience is another matter".

 

[endurodog]

You guys are making some really good points, especially for being this many pages into a SB thread. I would add one thing though about future training and how it may change and be recognized by the old guard. I hope that they have the vision, open mindness, and relevence to see the good and bad of any changes. I would guess that the vast majority see that in todays programs.

 

[spectrum]

I try to train ahead of my diving in a way....

When I go solo for instance I always plan to bring my pony. It may be in a familiar location with barely 20 feet of water with a low risk profile but I still sling it. The way I see it those dives are the chances to get very comfortable drilling with the pony in preparation to the deeper dives where I assign a higher priority to having it.

Pete

 

[TSandM]

Pete, apart from the whole CESA issue, I think you bring up a very good point -- we need to model good diving behavior, and we don't.

I go out by myself to set the float, while Peter talks the students through the dive briefing. Message delivered in teaching: Dive as a buddy team. Message modeled: It's okay to dive alone.

We work through gearing up and buddy checks with the students, but they never see us do one. Message delivered in teaching: Do a buddy check. Message modeled: It's unnecessary.

We tell students that they need to stay where they can see one another. Then Peter leads the dive (with students behind him) and I dive above and behind. Message delivered: Stay where you can see one another. Message modeled: It doesn't matter.

We tell students they should stay together on descent, that it's important. Then we take them out to the float, and one of us goes to the bottom to receive the students, and the other stays at the surface with the ones who can't sink. Message delivered: Descent is one of the most important times to keep a team together. Message modeled: It doesn't matter, if you're experienced.

I have never figured out how to incorporate the VERY important team skills and safety procedures that I completely believe in, with the requirements of managing an OW class. Perhaps that's why I'm not an OWSI yet.

 

[dbulmer]

I don't know what PADI (in this case ) allows or does not allow but it seems to me that Peter could emphasise these aspects in the post dive debriefing or during a surface interval providing there is sufficient time to do so.

If time is limited, perhaps a briefing before the dive where you both demonstrate a buddy check together and the importance of buddy skills and then discuss why Peter is at the front and you are behind. Turn it all into a learning experience.

My point is that you are both acting as a team but in this situation you are putting the welfare of your students ahead of what you'd do outside the confines of training. Students will be able to see the difference provided it is pointed out to them.

In all honesty I suspect you do this anyway but if you don't maybe it's worth something to think about.

 

[The Chairman]

we need to model good diving behavior, and we don't.

This happens for so many reasons and all too often we blindly accept them. Why not let the students see you set the float as a part of the team? Mind you, since I don't do OW CESAs, I don't need a float and the Keys offers a ton of mooring buoys to descend and ascend on. But there are a ton of other ways I see instructors integrate into their diving, techniques that are counter productive during and after class. Kneeling on the bottom to teach skills, lack of buddy awareness, lack of gas management skills, lack of anti-silting techniques are all issues that don't take a lot of time to teach, if they are done and expected from the beginning. It's like that old proverb: "I'd rather see a sermon, than hear one any day!" Most instructors attain Rock Star status in the eyes of their students, just by being a Scuba Instructor. Our students want to dive JUST LIKE WE DO. If we check our gauges and come up with a plan before we splash, they will too. If we never, ever, ever, ever touch the bottom, then they won't either. However, if we are cavalier about our diving, then they will be too. Set the example, dive the example and be the example you want your students following. Do it from the beginning and you'll find your class moves incredibly quickly and you have more control and a lot more fun.

 

[oldschoolto]

I like to sit on the bottom... Find a nice big rock and have a seat and wait for the fish to come to you.... That's one of my biggest pet peeve is going diving with the swim team.... I have all I need to see on one dive in a 100' area....

Sorry for the hijacking....

Jim....

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Pete, apart from the whole CESA issue, I think you bring up a very good point -- we need to model good diving behavior, and we don't.

I go out by myself to set the float, while Peter talks the students through the dive briefing. Message delivered in teaching: Dive as a buddy team. Message modeled: It's okay to dive alone.

We work through gearing up and buddy checks with the students, but they never see us do one. Message delivered in teaching: Do a buddy check. Message modeled: It's unnecessary.

We tell students that they need to stay where they can see one another. Then Peter leads the dive (with students behind him) and I dive above and behind. Message delivered: Stay where you can see one another. Message modeled: It doesn't matter.

We tell students they should stay together on descent, that it's important. Then we take them out to the float, and one of us goes to the bottom to receive the students, and the other stays at the surface with the ones who can't sink. Message delivered: Descent is one of the most important times to keep a team together. Message modeled: It doesn't matter, if you're experienced.

I have never figured out how to incorporate the VERY important team skills and safety procedures that I completely believe in, with the requirements of managing an OW class. Perhaps that's why I'm not an OWSI yet.

Can't much of your bad behavior be logically explained by the fact that your are trained to dive solo, you are completely self-sufficient, you have a redundant breathing system... Right?