Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[The Chairman]

Peter no Instructor has to satisfy me with how they teach their program. The important things are to satisfy the Client, the Agency and more importantly their conscience. If this can be done, that's all that's necessary.

This is just so true. I don't have the only take on how long or short dive training should be. I know what's right for my students and me, and I share that.

But the topic of this thread is about exceeding a person's training. My point, is that they have often learned that it's OK to exceed and violate their training right from OW. If mixed signals are sent, don't be surprised when the result is chaos. The human mind is amazingly facile at justifying poor decisions and actions. You can question what is sufficient training till the cows go home, but if your training includes bad habits that have to subsequently be broken or techniques that are contra-indicated then you will produce mixed results and a producing a decent competent diver will take a lot longer. It's my opinion that contradictory training, which is the predominant style as far as I have seen, creates an atmosphere where exceeding your training limits not only makes sense but makes the offending diver feel that they are indeed emulating their instructor. Why are we surprised that this happens so frequently that its almost a given?

And Peter... you don't want to set the bar high or low: set it neutral! That's the one skill I see lacking for many, many divers. They are led to believe that it's something you work for and that only experienced divers can attain. Shenanigans! That's the first and primary skill my students master. If they achieve nothing else, they will have great trim and buoyancy. That by itself will keep them from getting into a lot of the troubles I see divers get into.

 

[Dsix36]

I have dived beyond my training and still push the envelop in regards to my personal abilities and experience.

I have since taken the necessary courses to catch up to my diving. Did I learn anything, Yes. Was it worth the $$, Maybe. I never went past my training in the caves since my very first time in a cave was during training.

My open water dives that were beyond my level of training were done with the help and guidance of a couple of my best friends and mentors. I learned a lot and got my butt chewed out when i did something stupid or dangerous. It did not take long for me to come to grips with the major differences between tech dives and recreational dives.

A lot of my reasons for pushing myself probably come from the fact that all my life I have been under the impression that I can do anything that I set my mind on. I do not look at things as a roadblock but rather as an obstacle that I must get around. I have exited a wreck dive with my neck seal covered in rust from trying to cram myself through an opening. yes my neck seal. I know that my choosen sport has risks and that some of the things that I do greatly increase that risk. Perhaps I just refuse to grow up and accept that I am no longer invincible. I know that the day is coming when I will no longer be able to enjoy my chosen recreation, but until then I intend to make the most of it I can. I am very independent by nature and most people consider me to be extremely stubborn. If I can't do it myself, I will make something to help me do it before I will ask another for help. this whole buddy thing and being a team diver was very new to me and still is not always my first choice. There are still times (and dives) that I refuse to do with another person.

I know that I am not immortal and that my actions may very well cause my death. These are risks that I attempt to mitigate to some level. Now that I have someone in my life, I find that I am not willing to push myself quit as hard as when I was alone.

Call it immaturity, conceit, god complex, stupidity, selfishness, adrenaline junkie, or anything else that you want. I don't have the definite answers. I just know that it gives me great pleasure and a sense of accomplishment to do the "big" dives. I do not think that any of my regular buddies would be comfortable doing some of the things I do when diving.

 

[The Chairman]

Oh yeah... I have taught OW in poor visibility and I don't like it. Maybe that's why I moved to Key Largo! Standards were written for optimal conditions. If your conditions are less than optimal, your student/instructor ratio should be adjusted accordingly. Cave Diving Instruction has standards about what is acceptable visibility for a class. I think it's ten or fifteen feet and I think that would be a minimum for me teaching an OW class as well. I have interrupted classes where I did not find the vis acceptable for the students I had. What am I teaching my students? You should call a dive when conditions won't allow a safe dive. Training is not the time to allow exceptions based on expediency rather than safety. There's a spot here in Key Largo called Cannon Beach. I won't go there with more than four students because I would not be able to supervise them adequately. In fact, I would rather go with only one or two because the vis is rarely much greater than 20 ft. There's a silty bottom there too, so they get to practice their anti-silt techniques in real time. There is one point in the dive where we do a "Commando Peek" to complete our navigation leg. It's something that has to be done here in the Keys to get back to the boat and I think it's a great skill to introduce them to during OW training. That's as close to a bounce dive as we get and it actually has a purpose during their dives.

 

[Thalassamania]

I find the entire discussion of "teaching like you dive" rather amusing ... after-all, where's your buddy and how, specifically, does your buddy figure in demonstrating to your students the, "proper way to dive?"

 

[The Chairman]

I find the entire discussion of "teaching like you dive" rather amusing

Of course you do. It's easier to demean how others teach than to try and understand. Condescension is a good defense mechanism for some, but I prefer an open mind.

after-all, where's your buddy and how, specifically, does your buddy figure in demonstrating to your students the, "proper way to dive?"

Are you kidding me? When I am teaching I dive with a buddy that's also my student. We do a safety check, establish limits and I expect them to ask about my air supply during the dive as well. Don't you have a buddy when you're teaching OW???

 

[Thalassamania]

A primary rule in diving is to dive with a buddy. If you are to model good buddy behavior, which is a two way street, that is not with a student who is, by definition, on a "trust me" dive and is not yet prepared to hold up his or her end of the team.

 

[The Chairman]

that is not with a student who is, by definition, on a "trust me" dive and is not yet prepared to hold up his or her end of the team.

This might be true of YOUR students. Mine don't hit OW until I am certain that they have competent diving skills including competent buddy skills. Do they have MY buddy skills? Of course not. Their skills are commensurate with the dives they are doing and they know it. It's all about limits. Of course there are the big three: gas, depth and time. Then there are the others: skills, certifications, physical abilities, site conditions and these apply equally to your buddy. If you want your students to understand that limits mean LIMITS, then be sure to honor them during your dives. If you don't mind sending crossed signals, then by all means: confuse the heck out of them.

 

[Thalassamania]

At least do me the courtesy, as I do you, of assuming that my students display the same level of competence as do yours, even if you don't believe it.

Frankly I find the idea of describing a student as competent to serve as a buddy for an instructor during training to be either an underestimation of the issue or an overestimation of the student's actually abilities. All I am pointing out (and I leave it to the "reading public" to decide the question) is that your diving without a similarly qualified buddy, with whom you are able to demonstrate real world buddy diving with, flies in the face of your claims of "reality based training."

Though I strongly side with BoulderJohn in this conversation, with rare exceptions involving very advanced training, I dive with a similarly qualified buddy during training, as have all of my staff ... as I have noted in the past, our working team is two buddy pairs of students supervised by a buddy pair of staff.

 

[The Chairman]

At least do me the courtesy, as I do you, of assuming that my students display the same level of competence as do yours, even if you don't believe it.

I made no such assumption. You said that yours could not act as a competent buddy. Mine can. What does an OW buddy need to do to be competent? Help to establish limits pre-dive. Maintain buddy contact and awareness. Assist, if needed, to the best of their abilities. Monitor and honor all limits for both divers.

Again, you said that yours could not do this... I used the word "might" out of deference to you. Please don't put words or meanings into my post that aren't there.

 

[Thalassamania]

I made no such assumption. You said that yours could not act as a competent buddy. Mine can. What does an OW buddy need to do to be competent? Help to establish limits pre-dive. Maintain buddy contact and awareness. Assist, if needed, to the best of their abilities. Monitor and honor all limits for both divers.

If you think that's all there is to operating as an instructional buddy, so be it ... you have your way of doing things, and I have mine. BTW: do you have a single individual from amongst your student group who is designated to act as you buddy, or is that a kind of free floating responsibility.