Criminally negligent homicide?/Scuba Instructor Faces Charges (merged threads)

[divrdrew]

So after reading this whole string of postings, here is my question:

What has the gear got to do with this injury?

This is a lung expansion injury caused by not exhaling while ascending. A lung expansion injury is just as lethal with a regulator in your mouth, as without. All of the rest is simply fluff. Ascents with a breath coming from compressed air (from a submarine, a diving bell or a scuba tank) all require an open air way when surfacing.

Agreed, it is a lung expansion injury. I'll try to clarify my point as it relates to gear.

The point I was trying to make is information overload. If you try to load a student up with too much information and they can't assimilate it all, they'll forget something. I can't tell you how many times my open water students need to be reminded to exhale (when the reg isn't in their mouth) during the class, even on the most basic of skills/exercises. We are throwing so many things at them that they need to remember, sometimes they simply forget. In that sense, the complexity of the skill, as taught, requires many components and the student has to remember a lot of things in sequence to perform the skill adequately. As such, they can easily be overwhelmed / overloaded and forget something. The lack of any way to breathe on the way to the surface, should something go wrong, can contribute to increased stress and if they are already overloaded, they can more easily forget to exhale on the ascent...they simply don't think about it...all they care about is getting to the surface. By keeping the regulator / gear intact on the ascent, that stress is removed.

 

[Walter]

I'd seriously doubt that you can cite a single incident where a diver said "If I hadn't done that skill in my open water class, I'd be dead".

Actually, I can think of two incidents when I would have very likey died if I didn't have the confidence that drill gave me.

 

[Nemrod]

True, but not as done in this exercise. I've been teaching scuba for a number of years now (PADI) and during any emergency ascents in open water classes, regs always stay in the mouth, just to be safe. Additionally, in open water classes, we teach to don and doff on the bottom, but never to follow doffing with an ascent without any gear. I also make sure that I'm literally standing over my students as they remove their gear to ensure they do not start to float away. Maybe I'm a bit conservative, but it's better than the alternative outcome. PADI would never allow one of its instructors to do this skill with open water divers, and if we did, we'd be on our own. IMHO, it's above what is necessary to be a good diver and it too advanced for a simple open water cert, but that's an entirely different discussion. Back on track now...I see a couple major issues here (I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night ;-p

1 - was she an instructor or not? I have been involved with the scuba programs at a couple major universities and there is a very long approval process here. Most are concerned with liability and I seriously doubt that she could teach it without an instructor rating from a major agency. If she was approved but not an instructor, the University can also likely be held accountable. Even with instructors and liability covering a couple million, it still took over a year to get the scuba courses approved at one of the universities.

2 - was the student on drugs? If so, how could the instructor be held accountable unless it was obvious and she still allowed the student in the water.

3 - Was she directly supervising the student? How many were doing the exercise at the same time? Was she in the water or out?

Not many people realize it, but ascents, even from as shallow at 6 feet, can be very dangerous. Air is not forced out of your lungs as you ascend, you must consciously exhale (I always teach make an 'aaaahhhhh' or humming sound with your lips open). If you don't it's easy to have some serious consequences.

My sympathies go out to the family and friends of the student. It was a tragic accident. As far as the instructor goes, if she was not a certified instructor, she'll get what's coming. That may sound harsh, but as an industry, we can't have just anyone teaching scuba. That's why there have been calls for federal regulation of the industry over recent years.



Your logic is flawed. Diving is not safer with this skill than without it and it doesn't save lives. I'd seriously doubt that you can cite a single incident where a diver said "If I hadn't done that skill in my open water class, I'd be dead". There are many other ways to improve confidence and capabilities without jeopardizing the safety of the student. Reality is that this is a very complex and dangerous skill if not performed properly (as evidenced here). There must be very close supervision to the point that the instructor can abort the exercise if there is a problem. Let's just say that we disagree on this one (FWIW, I am also a certified AI with YMCA and my friend was the national director of the program for a few years so I'm quite familiar with the program).

I'll stop rambling now.

PadI has about so dummed down the curricula that the resulting students are not safe or competent but they can purchase gear. You cannot perform a doff and don with the regulator in your mouth and that Padi does not teach this important skill is their continued failure to provide quality instruction. Their interest is and always has been to provide eager consumers for the floor planning of dive gear for dive shops, not quality instruction.

I will stick with what I said. N

 

[Nemrod]

True, but not as done in this exercise. I've been teaching scuba for a number of years now (PADI) and during any emergency ascents in open water classes, regs always stay in the mouth, just to be safe. Additionally, in open water classes, we teach to don and doff on the bottom, but never to follow doffing with an ascent without any gear. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your logic is flawed. Diving is not safer with this skill than without it and it doesn't save lives. I'd seriously doubt that you can cite a single incident where a diver said "If I hadn't done that skill in my open water class, I'd be dead". There are many other ways to improve confidence and capabilities without jeopardizing the safety of the student. Reality is that this is a very complex and dangerous skill if not performed properly (as evidenced here). There must be very close supervision to the point that the instructor can abort the exercise if there is a problem. Let's just say that we disagree on this one (FWIW, I am also a certified AI with YMCA and my friend was the national director of the program for a few years so I'm quite familiar with the program).

I'll stop rambling now.

You would be wrong, if only a "single" diver is your need for proof, then on several occasions I have had need to remove my gear and quite possibly otherwise I would be dead. Not everyone does shallow pretty fishy identification dives hand holding at a PadI approved resort center.

It is a watermanship demonstration skill, your a PadI instructor, since the PadI students I have observed generally rank among the lowest quality and most ill prepared divers I have ever come across, almost without exception, I would say the lack of integration of basic skills into the instruction is the likely reason.

A doff and don without the ascent and return surface dive is not a doff and don as has been practiced since the inception of the sport.

Everyone thinks their instructor is good, it is only later they find out they have no skills and they recieved no instruction. N

 

[divrdrew]

You would be wrong, if only a "single" diver is your need for proof, then on several occasions I have had need to remove my gear and quite possibvly otherwise I would be dead.

It is a watermanship demonstration skill, your a PadI instructor, since the PadI students I have observed generally rank among the lowest quality and most ill prepared divers I have ever come across--almost without exception, I would say the lack of integration of basic skills into the instruction is the likely reason. N

I agree that some instructors in general don't turn out the best students, but pease do not lump me in with the crowd. That said, many instructors don't turn out good students and you can't simply generalize it to all PADI instructors.

I pride myself in the quality of students I turn out even in an open water class. This is very visible when we go someplace like Weeki Wachee springs and I observe my student's skills compared with other open water students. When I did my IDC/IE, I observed many instructors that should not have been there, but got rubber stamped anyway. At that point, I made a promise to myself about the quality of students I cerfity.

Perhaps you have needed this skill, but was it immediately after your open water class, or did you take advanced training? Most likely, you were in an advanced situation (wreck, cave, etc) that an open water students shouldn't be in.

I don't discount the importance of such skills in more advanced classes...just the use of them in the basic open water class. If it was such an important skill, why doesnt the RSTC require it as a minimum training standard for open water classes? I simply think it's too much for a basic student. Let's say we agree to disagree on this one...both of us take the views of our certifying agencies in this regard.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

BYW, the RSTC does not set standards for any agency. Each agency sets its own standards. Members have agreed their standards will meet or exceed RSTC standards.

Which is equivalent to saying that any piece of furniture in a room will meet or exceed the height of the floor.

I get so tired of reading the statement that the RSTC sets standards for scuba diving agencies. It's nothing more than a club where the members define their own rules of behavior.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[String]

If it was such an important skill, why doesnt the RSTC require it as a minimum training standard for open water classes?

Because RSTC is completely pointless. It sets ludicrously low standards just so all the members can claim their programme exceeds them. Just because a pointless cartel doesnt have it in their laughably poor framework doesn't mean the skill isnt worth knowing.

 

[Peter Guy]

Just a couple of reminders about what this case is, and is not.

1. It is a criminal case --- not a civil one. That means that no waiver of liability applies. It is the State that is bringing the case, not the victim (his family). So the fact that diving is an inherently dangerous activity (which I believe it is) is irrelevant.

2. As a criminal case, the MOST LIKELY basis for the prosecution is that the defendant acted in a manner that showed "reckless disregard" towards the victim AND THAT this "reckless disregard" was a significant cause of the death. [COMMENT -- A number of instructors on this thread have discussed the importance of being very close to a student doing a CESA to make sure that they exhaled. IF (note, IF) the defendant was no where near the student(s) while she had them doing CESA's, that could certainly be A BASIS for the notion of a "reckless disregard" for the safety of the victim.]

3. Should other instructor's be worried about this? Yes -- IF (again, IF) they "teach" in a way that shows a "reckless disregard" for the safety of their students. As far as I'm concerned, an instructor needs to manage her class in such a way that she can "interfere" with a student who is doing something that is dangerous (i.e., holding a breath upon ascent). This is NOT putting an undue burden on an instructor nor is it saying that an instructor is strictly liable for bad incidents -- but there IS a burden on an instructor to do those things that are "reasonable" to ensure a safe teaching environment.

(And no, I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night -- but I used to defend people accused of crimes for a living.)

 

[dbulmer]

Divrdrew,
The key component in learning a skill such as Ditch and Don is time. In a PADI OW course you have more time constraints and therefore within a 3/4 day course I think it might be prove difficult to get the individual student to the point where you'd feel happy allowing them to try this so I see your point of view.

I belong to an SAA club and our OW skillset is very similar to the YMCA program. The thing is, in the UK club based system you get to know the individual student over a period of time sometimes measured in weeks or months so you have sufficient time to address key safety concerns ad nauseaum. I'm not suggesting PADI don't but with more time to practice it gets easier.

The point of the ditch/don is to get a student comfortable in the water, re-inforce airway control and encourage underwater problem solving - it's a teaching drill not an end in itself. The other thing is that the student will have had some snorkelling training before adding scuba gear so by the time the student gets to this point the student will be deemed to be comfortable enough in water and if not steps are taken to get that student comfortable.

 

[--tom--]

The lack of any way to breathe on the way to the surface, should something go wrong, can contribute to increased stress and if they are already overloaded, they can more easily forget to exhale on the ascent...they simply don't think about it...all they care about is getting to the surface. By keeping the regulator / gear intact on the ascent, that stress is removed.

Forgive me calling you on this. I can't tell you how many CESA students I have stopped for not exhaling with a reg in their mouth, I am going to bet you have too. The gear is not necessarily a part of the issue.