Criminally negligent homicide?/Scuba Instructor Faces Charges (merged threads)

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In that case you do not understand the relationship between RSTC standards and the standards of its members. YMCA requires the doff and don skill in its standards. In that skill, the student removes all their gear, the gear is left on the bottom while the student swims to the surface, then returns to the bottom where the gear is replaced.

Does the YMCA instructor manual specify a standard for how the instructor is to conduct the drill? Should the drill be done with only one studenent at a time? Does it state that the instructor should be in position to prevent a student from injuring him/her self? Does it state that the instructor should be able to donate a alternate air source to the student if the drill requires abortion? What is the standard of care the instructor should be using when conducting this drill?

These stadards for conducting the drill may make it less dangerous, But the drill is still dangerous. I person died performing it. It is not a common skill you would need for recreational diving. Because of these facts, the YMCA should consider not teaching it as stated above.

I am sorry, I only have access to PADI (I know, cuss if you want) and RSTC teaching standards.

Could a YMCA instructor please comment on the stadard of care for the instructor for conducting this drill.
 
Removing and replacing scuba gear in water to deep to stand in is certainly tought in my classes. This is a basic skill and tought in order to free your gear from entaglemnt.

However ABANDONING your gear and heading to the surface without your gear is not taught in my class and I believe it is dangerours. You should try to solve your problems underwater! Only a paniced diver would head to the surface without his gear in case of entagelement.

Well, you would be wrong. It is a basic scuba skill that will hopefully never be needed. As a basic skill it demonstrates watermanship and mastery of bouyancy and breath control. Like a dead stick landing for a pilot, we practice, but we don't actually crash. The skill is doff and don, not lung expansion and embolism.

Doff and don is not dangerous, it is not foolish and to let our litigous society dumb us down like cattle is foolish when the time comes that skill might come to be handy and you have never done it.

The problem here is not the doff and don, it was a (non) instructor instructor teaching a scuba course while not actually teaching it so she could give private non instruction while her non students performed a basic skill demonstration unsupervised and without proper instruction and preparation for the skill activity which then predictably led to bad outcome.

Scuba is a safe and easy sport but it does have certain dangers, breathing compressed air is one of them. It is incumbent upon the instructor to fully educate the students of that danger and how to avoid injury as a result and to maintain control of any skill exercises that might potentially lead to such injuries. N
 
While not for a basic class, this is a current IANTD requirement:

Skill Three (25 points, confined water)
Remove SCUBA gear underwater and perform a free ascent to the surface. Take three breaths, perform a surface dive, and don SCUBA gear.


However ABANDONING your gear and heading to the surface without your gear is not taught in my class and I believe it is dangerours. You should try to solve your problems underwater! Only a paniced diver would head to the surface without his gear in case of entagelement.

Yes, you should try to solve your problems underwater. But if you try to no avail (I make no claims as to the likeliness of this happening) and are left with no choice but to ditch or drown, what are you going to do?

the drill is still dangerous. I person died performing it

Fundamentally, this drill is no more dangerous without gear than it is with.
 
The doff and don procedure was taught in my open water class 3 years ago through a NAUI certifiying shop. It was done in a pool, in 12 feet of water, individually, with the instructor and two assistants (instructors in training) also in the water.

It's my opinion that it's a great skill to have learned and made me feel much more confident as a diver. And as in anything in life, being confident in your skills makes a big difference when the heat is on.
 
BYW, the RSTC does not set standards for any agency. Each agency sets its own standards. Members have agreed their standards will meet or exceed RSTC standards.

There are a number of reason for the existence of the RSTC, some of which bear on the liability to which a member might be exposed. By being a member of the RSTC, each member is assured that they have a "defensible" set of minimum standards, agreed upon by all members, and that they can count upon this "standard" in a court of law.

Personally, I think the RSTC has little to do with proper scuba instruction, and a lot to do with "defining a defensible standard".

Phil Ellis
 
jeter:
Does the YMCA instructor manual specify a standard for how the instructor is to conduct the drill?

I'll check the standards tonight, but I always conducted it with one student at a time.

jeter:
the drill is still dangerous.

Diving is dangerous. Diving is safer with this skill than without it.

jeter:
I person died performing it.

People die from panic. Learning this drill reduces the probability of panic. This drill saves lives.

jeter:
It is not a common skill you would need for recreational diving.

It is designed to increase skill and confidence levels to make diving safer.

jeter:
Because of these facts, the YMCA should consider not teaching it as stated above.

Because of these facts, all agencies should consider requiring it.
 
However, doff and don has been and continues to be a BASIC scuba skill since the inception of the sport and is considered as a BASIC skill to be important. Just because you were not taught this important skill means nothing other than your instructor was negligent in not preparing you for the possiblity you might someday need to remove gear if only temporarily to repair something. I think you should sue for not having been fully trained.

True, but not as done in this exercise. I've been teaching scuba for a number of years now (PADI) and during any emergency ascents in open water classes, regs always stay in the mouth, just to be safe. Additionally, in open water classes, we teach to don and doff on the bottom, but never to follow doffing with an ascent without any gear. I also make sure that I'm literally standing over my students as they remove their gear to ensure they do not start to float away. Maybe I'm a bit conservative, but it's better than the alternative outcome. PADI would never allow one of its instructors to do this skill with open water divers, and if we did, we'd be on our own. IMHO, it's above what is necessary to be a good diver and it too advanced for a simple open water cert, but that's an entirely different discussion. Back on track now...I see a couple major issues here (I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night ;-p

1 - was she an instructor or not? I have been involved with the scuba programs at a couple major universities and there is a very long approval process here. Most are concerned with liability and I seriously doubt that she could teach it without an instructor rating from a major agency. If she was approved but not an instructor, the University can also likely be held accountable. Even with instructors and liability covering a couple million, it still took over a year to get the scuba courses approved at one of the universities.

2 - was the student on drugs? If so, how could the instructor be held accountable unless it was obvious and she still allowed the student in the water.

3 - Was she directly supervising the student? How many were doing the exercise at the same time? Was she in the water or out?

Not many people realize it, but ascents, even from as shallow at 6 feet, can be very dangerous. Air is not forced out of your lungs as you ascend, you must consciously exhale (I always teach make an 'aaaahhhhh' or humming sound with your lips open). If you don't it's easy to have some serious consequences.

My sympathies go out to the family and friends of the student. It was a tragic accident. As far as the instructor goes, if she was not a certified instructor, she'll get what's coming. That may sound harsh, but as an industry, we can't have just anyone teaching scuba. That's why there have been calls for federal regulation of the industry over recent years.

I'll check the standards tonight, but I always conducted it with one student at a time.

Diving is dangerous. Diving is safer with this skill than without it.

People die from panic. Learning this drill reduces the probability of panic. This drill saves lives.

It is designed to increase skill and confidence levels to make diving safer.

Because of these facts, all agencies should consider requiring it.

Your logic is flawed. Diving is not safer with this skill than without it and it doesn't save lives. I'd seriously doubt that you can cite a single incident where a diver said "If I hadn't done that skill in my open water class, I'd be dead". There are many other ways to improve confidence and capabilities without jeopardizing the safety of the student. Reality is that this is a very complex and dangerous skill if not performed properly (as evidenced here). There must be very close supervision to the point that the instructor can abort the exercise if there is a problem. Let's just say that we disagree on this one (FWIW, I am also a certified AI with YMCA and my friend was the national director of the program for a few years so I'm quite familiar with the program).

I'll stop rambling now.
 
So after reading this whole string of postings, here is my question:

What has the gear got to do with this injury?

This is a lung expansion injury caused by not exhaling while ascending. A lung expansion injury is just as lethal with a regulator in your mouth, as without. All of the rest is simply fluff. Ascents with a breath coming from compressed air (from a submarine, a diving bell or a scuba tank) all require an open air way when surfacing.
 
PhilEllis:
By being a member of the RSTC, each member is assured that they have a "defensible" set of minimum standards, agreed upon by all members, and that they can count upon this "standard" in a court of law.

Very little can be counted upon in a court of law. It wouldn't take much in the way of expert testimony to blow that argument out of the water.
 
Very little can be counted upon in a court of law. It wouldn't take much in the way of expert testimony to blow that argument out of the water.

Walter, I didn't say the argument worked........I simply said that is the assumption for wanting to be a member.

Phil Ellis
 
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