Criminally negligent homicide?/Scuba Instructor Faces Charges (merged threads)

[i_like_turtles]

...However, doff and don has been and continues to be a BASIC scuba skill since the inception of the sport and is considered as a BASIC skill to be important. Just because you were not taught this important skill means nothing other than your instructor was negligent in not preparing you for the possiblity you might someday need to remove gear if only temporarily to repair something. I think you should sue for not having been fully trained.
N

Yep, I don't think that some of the folks who have read this thread understand that this is a skill which is in fact still taught today.

It's not just a throw back to the days of fish bowl masks, double hose regulators, and Sea Hunt.

However, the fact that it was taught by someone not certified to teach it, and in an apparently negligent manner is no less a factor to consider.

 

[--tom--]

Just as a note, the person in charge of this class wouldn't necessarily need to be an instructor to remain within certifying agency's standard. This may be a confined water class (i.e. a P.E. class) where a certification wouldn't be required for passing. In that case I believe a NAUI Divemaster or a PADI Assistant Instructor could conduct this class because an Open Water component isn't in the curriculum.

 

[jeter]

Since we've yet to hear under which standards she was operating, it's impossible to know what those standards require. You are making assumptions.

Yes I am. I am making the assumptions that are recomended by the Recreation Scuba Training Council (RSTC) which sets minimum training stadards for IDEA, PADI, PDIC, SDI, SSI and YMCA.

Interesting, I do not see NAUI listed as a member. Wonder why? Does anybody know?

Do you know of any other standards that would apply in the United States?

Jay

 

[Noboundaries]

If she wasn't certified to teach, she's so screwed in court no matter what anyone thinks. This is the criminal case before the civil case that is guaranteed to follow no matter what the outcome of the criminal case.

As far as the emergency ascent exercise in a pool, we finned from the deep end to the shallow of the pool along the bottom while exhaling. We did it one at a time with the instructor swimming alongside. It demonstrated just how far you can go while exhaling and significantly reduced the possibility of injury from someone holding their breath swimming vertically. Not a perfect demonstration by any means, but how much better is the exercise if you're only in 8-10 feet of water? The risks are definitely greater in the vertical ascent.

 

[jeter]

Jay,
When I was first certified in 1976 this was a common drill. Remove all your gear on the bottom, surface, dive back down and put it all back on. Was called a Doff and Don exercise. Did it several times.

Jim

I am sure that you are a better diver for learning this skill. And these skills are still taught in sepearte pieces today. The fact remains that a person died performing this drill. Some say he was on drugs, Some say that he couldn't follow directions. None of that really matters. The fact is that threre is a possibilty of death while doing this drill. That makes it dangerous.

Some people say that Scuba is inherently dangerous. I do not believe that. In the 70's people dived withoug an alternate second stage. Some people dived without an SPG. they used a switch on the back of the tank to let them know they were out of air. We did not really understand decompression sickness or silent bubbles. Dive tables were less conservitive. In those days the sport was dangerous.

Today we have made great improvements in diving technology to make the sport safe and fun for everyone. I no longer believe the sport of diving should be refered to as dangerous.

Sorry for using your quote for a rant Jim. I mean absolutely nothing personal by it. I just had some things I needed to say.

Dive Safe,
Jay

 

[PhilEllis]

Exactly.

Either that, or there is a whole lot more to the story than is being reported here. Phil, I won't ask you to repeat rumor and innuendo, but can you point us to somewhere that has that additional information?

Unfortunately, I can't. I have not done an exhaustive search, but have heard many of the details of the incident from people that were "close" to the situation. If I am able to say more later, I will do so.

Phil Ellis

 

[Louma]

Yes I am. I am making the assumptions that are recomended by the Recreation Scuba Training Council (RSTC) which sets minimum training stadards for IDEA, PADI, PDIC, SDI, SSI and YMCA.

Interesting, I do not see NAUI listed as a member. Wonder why? Does anybody know?

Do you know of any other standards that would apply in the United States?

Jay

There have been LOT's of posts on why NAUI is not a member of the RSTC.

 

[String]

More agencies are NOT members of the RSTC than are.

RSTC is a worthless cartel that has no useful purpose.

 

[Walter]

Yes I am. I am making the assumptions that are recomended by the Recreation Scuba Training Council (RSTC) which sets minimum training stadards for IDEA, PADI, PDIC, SDI, SSI and YMCA.

Interesting, I do not see NAUI listed as a member. Wonder why? Does anybody know?

Do you know of any other standards that would apply in the United States?

Jay

In that case you do not understand the relationship between RSTC standards and the standards of its members. YMCA requires the doff and don skill in its standards. In that skill, the student removes all their gear, the gear is left on the bottom while the student swims to the surface, then returns to the bottom where the gear is replaced.

NAUI was a founding member, but dropped out for two reasons. They didn't want to give another organization any control over their standards and RSTC standards are so low as to be worthless anyway.

BYW, the RSTC does not set standards for any agency. Each agency sets its own standards. Members have agreed their standards will meet or exceed RSTC standards.

 

[PhilEllis]

This is a complicated story with conflicting information and the lady supposedly not being an instructor and not supervising the student who is counter alleged was "on drugs" and the whole of it will need to be worked out .

However, doff and don has been and continues to be a BASIC scuba skill since the inception of the sport and is considered as a BASIC skill to be important. Just because you were not taught this important skill means nothing other than your instructor was negligent in not preparing you for the possiblity you might someday need to remove gear if only temporarily to repair something. I think you should sue for not having been fully trained.

I don't think I would be teaching doff and don in eighteen feet of water, eight, but not eighteen. The skill can be learned in eight to ten feet of water and should be done with the instructor supervising closely no more than two or three students at a time, first one, then the other and then the other--not all at once. In that way she/he can remain in eye contact with the student and provide physical intervention if need be.

N

Clearly, this skill is endorsed by some agencies and not by others. I am certain, that with proper instructor supervision, it can be taught safely.

While I don't know for sure and am not very confident of the grand jury system AS IT WORKS TODAY, I would bet that there was some evidence presented that the individual who was responsible (and indicted) was not providing the proper supervision and that she acted in a way different for the norms for proper supervision.

Regardless of the agency involved, or if this was a university sanctioned program, to be convicted, the state will need to present clear evidence that the responsible person was acting outside of the normal standard for care, however that is defined by the law. I would fully expect that her actions will be compared against the actions of other instructors to make this determination.

Regardless of the argument as to the validity of this skill, she should certainly hope that she was supervising it properly, that the level of supervision meets "prevailing industry norms", and that her actions don't demonstrate irresponsible behavior.

Phil Ellis