Charging extra for VIP??
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jseyfert3
Contributor
Wow. Internet discussions are fun!
I've learned that I'm going to die, because the 20 lb CO2 tank I have chained on the inside of my planted aquarium stand was last hydro'd in 2011 (hasn't run out yet), and has no VIP sticker!
I'm also going to die cause none of the 40 or so compressed gas tanks at my job have VIP stickers! One or two even hold 100% oxygen! You can't put oxygen in a tank that hasn't been visually inspected!
I've learned that I'm going to die, because the 20 lb CO2 tank I have chained on the inside of my planted aquarium stand was last hydro'd in 2011 (hasn't run out yet), and has no VIP sticker!
I'm also going to die cause none of the 40 or so compressed gas tanks at my job have VIP stickers! One or two even hold 100% oxygen! You can't put oxygen in a tank that hasn't been visually inspected!
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Rred
Contributor
Slightly OT but perhaps not.
Somewhere back in the 80's or 90's there was a filter being sold on the market. The idea being that you put the filter on your tank (like a regulator yoke) and LEFT it there during the fill, so that any crud in the shop's tanks was trapped by the auxiliary filter and didn't get into your tank.
The great and marvelous Internet says such a thing no longer exists, and of course, no shop ever puts crud in your tank, although several of my tanks spontaneously generated crud the way that dead meat spontaneously generates maggots. (Ahuh.)
But, does anyone else remember such a device? Know it they're still being made by some gnomes in a basement fortress someplace?
Somewhere back in the 80's or 90's there was a filter being sold on the market. The idea being that you put the filter on your tank (like a regulator yoke) and LEFT it there during the fill, so that any crud in the shop's tanks was trapped by the auxiliary filter and didn't get into your tank.
The great and marvelous Internet says such a thing no longer exists, and of course, no shop ever puts crud in your tank, although several of my tanks spontaneously generated crud the way that dead meat spontaneously generates maggots. (Ahuh.)
But, does anyone else remember such a device? Know it they're still being made by some gnomes in a basement fortress someplace?
Jack Hammer
Contributor
2airishuman
Contributor
The broader thing at work here, as I see it, is that the track record of high-pressure cylinder safety in the United States is very, very good. There have been accidents involving oxygen fires in aluminum cylinders. There have been accidents with the 6351 aluminum.
I haven't been able to find any statistics or reports of 3AA or post-1990 3AL cylinders that have exploded, in the USA, except for oxygen fires. Not only in SCUBA but in industrial, medical, and firefighting usages. I would welcome some links showing the prevalence of these accidents if anyone has them.
There is evidence that the annual visual check is a good thing, because prior to its adoption as a standard practice, there were accidents involving corrosion from the intrusion of salt water. The evidence supported a basic visual check to determine if any significant corrosion had taken place since the last hydro.
I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that, for 3AA cylinders, post-1990 3AL cylinders, and HP steels, there is any reason to perform a second, more extensive inspection following the federally mandated requalification ("hydro"). I also don't think there is any evidence that safety can be improved by expanding the visual inspection protocol beyond its original scope of a simple visual check.
The Chairman speaks my mind on this. The requalification required by federal regulations includes extensive visual inspection requirements, which vary depending on the type of cylinder (3AA, 3AL, and other types not used in SCUBA). High pressure steel cylinders manufactured under a special permit have their own requirements in the special permit, which for PST and Worthington are the same as the 3AA requirements.
For 3AA cylinders, it is a visual inspection inside and out for the presence of corrosion or other damage such a deep scratches or cracks. Pits and lines of corrosion are measured. There are objective standards for the maximum size of a pit or line.
[
I haven't been able to find any statistics or reports of 3AA or post-1990 3AL cylinders that have exploded, in the USA, except for oxygen fires. Not only in SCUBA but in industrial, medical, and firefighting usages. I would welcome some links showing the prevalence of these accidents if anyone has them.
There is evidence that the annual visual check is a good thing, because prior to its adoption as a standard practice, there were accidents involving corrosion from the intrusion of salt water. The evidence supported a basic visual check to determine if any significant corrosion had taken place since the last hydro.
I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that, for 3AA cylinders, post-1990 3AL cylinders, and HP steels, there is any reason to perform a second, more extensive inspection following the federally mandated requalification ("hydro"). I also don't think there is any evidence that safety can be improved by expanding the visual inspection protocol beyond its original scope of a simple visual check.
The Chairman speaks my mind on this. The requalification required by federal regulations includes extensive visual inspection requirements, which vary depending on the type of cylinder (3AA, 3AL, and other types not used in SCUBA). High pressure steel cylinders manufactured under a special permit have their own requirements in the special permit, which for PST and Worthington are the same as the 3AA requirements.
For 3AA cylinders, it is a visual inspection inside and out for the presence of corrosion or other damage such a deep scratches or cracks. Pits and lines of corrosion are measured. There are objective standards for the maximum size of a pit or line.
[
Rred
Contributor
Personal air filters: Thanks, guys!
Tank statistics: I don't think there is any mandatory reporting in place at the federal level, much less states. Tank explosions are the kind of thing no one wants to be bothered with tracking, much less when they can almost always say "pilot error". And of course the SCUBA industry wouldn't want to scare away the rubes. Ergh, customers.
Speaking of which though. I can't help but think a proper fill station should be something like a thick-walled (steel, concrete block, timber) tank filled with water, so that anything which did explode would vent upwards, and not be able to throw any shrapnel across the room. Rubbermaid buckets just seem stupid lazy to me.
I know you can literally extinguish a lit cigarette in a bowl of gasoline, but I still don't like to see smoking around gasoline stations, either. I must just be too conservative.(G)
Tank statistics: I don't think there is any mandatory reporting in place at the federal level, much less states. Tank explosions are the kind of thing no one wants to be bothered with tracking, much less when they can almost always say "pilot error". And of course the SCUBA industry wouldn't want to scare away the rubes. Ergh, customers.
Speaking of which though. I can't help but think a proper fill station should be something like a thick-walled (steel, concrete block, timber) tank filled with water, so that anything which did explode would vent upwards, and not be able to throw any shrapnel across the room. Rubbermaid buckets just seem stupid lazy to me.
I know you can literally extinguish a lit cigarette in a bowl of gasoline, but I still don't like to see smoking around gasoline stations, either. I must just be too conservative.(G)
2airishuman
Contributor
Containment fill stations do exist and are in reasonably widespread use in fire departments. I could only speculate as to why they have caught on there but not in the packaged gas industry or in dive shops.
The ruptures that have occurred in older aluminum cylinders have not taken place predominantly during fills.
Pete my point was that most of the PSI inspection are not done for recertification such using a straight edge to see if the tank is bloated in the middle. or if gouges are too deep to pass a VIP (per PSI's assembled criteria) or not before moving on to the recert process. They open the tank look in to it with a flash light and a minute later its going into the hydro chamber. 1-2 minutes do not qualify as a valid VIP. To do a proper VIP it takes tools and a bit of time to get it done. When you are charging 10-20 dollars for a hydro, it is assured that not much time is spent on them. Even shops don't do VIPs correctly. Many times it is a loosing proposition dealing with either entity. AS for most LDS's I know of, what you pay for is a sticker. A right of passage to get air.
There is more needed if you are talking nitrox or O2 tanks. They have no concern about them. Only the structural integrity to do the rcert.
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