Chandelier Cave - safe for AOW diver?

[DevonDiver]

No, you were trying to convince the OP to not do the dive, I was trying to convince the OP that you were full of hot air and that he should ignore you.

As I said, you failed to see the perspective. If you concentrate on answering the OP's question, and leave out the petty back-stabbing and competition... then you'd do the OP more service.

But you do not have full knowledge of the risks because you've never done the dive. I have. That's a big difference in my opinion as to being able to evaluate the risks to a less-qualified diver.

Oh please... Is that the only 'victory' you can win?

I've presented a coherent rationale for assessing the dive. It's meant as a tool for divers. Your only retort seems to be "It's a grey area" or "It's difficult to catagorize".

Are you really helping the OP?.. because it looks to me like your only motivation is to prove some superiority of something - on the basis that you've done this dive before.

It's only difficult to answer within the strictures of your PADI rules. If the question were simply "is it safe to do" and not "is it safe to do within the PADI rules" then the answer would be a simple and unqualified "YES!!!".

Firstly, they are recommendations, not "rules". Recommendations made for diver safety.

Secondly, SSI make the same recommendations. You teach for them do you not? I do also.

There are many dives when you are underwater without immediate access to the surface. You are always limited by ascent rate. If you're at 130', would you really consider an "immediate ascent"?

Yes. The surface is directly accessible. You have a problem, you ascend immediately. There is no navigational issue, or obstruction to the surface.

You're supposed to be a scuba instructor... are you really so desperate as to play word games??

If it makes you happy... you win... now... can we please concentrate on educating and advising divers properly?

DAN USA will certainly "pay up" if there were an accident by a covered OW diver in Chandelier Cave.

Prove it... if you're going to state it.

Yes, I do believe my advice is far superior to yours for the inexperienced diver posing the question.

That's evident. Sadly, you're focusing too much on right-and-wrong... and not devoting sufficient attention to educating. I really don't want to argue with you. You are entitled to your opinion and the advice you give. Whilst that advice is based on personal experience, it is simply worth remembering that there are other factors to consider. Novice divers have a right to hear those factors, just as I have a right to express them.

I'm more than happy to have my posts judged on their merits, by an intelligent reader. If you feel the need to disassemble my posts, then I suggest there's some underlying motive that has more to do with justifying your actions, rather than providing a honest insight.

Perhaps, when you get sufficiently qualified, then you might understand better. For now, I'm just glad of the ready illustrations you've made to highlight the problem with justifying and negotiating safety considerations. I couldn't have asked for better examples.

If you don't get what I'm trying to explain... that's fine. I'm sure less biased readers will understand.



I think we've dominated this thread enough now. I expressed my thoughts. You expressed yours. Unless further questions are asked by those wanting to know more, then I don't feel that protracting this discussion has any benefits. Cheers.

 

[Mossman]

Yes. The surface is directly accessible. You have a problem, you ascend immediately. There is no navigational issue, or obstruction to the surface.

That is the case with Chandelier Cave, as I've pointed out several times. You have a problem, you ascend immediately into one of the air pockets. No problem.

Prove it... if you're going to state it.

DAN's Master and Preferred plans covered any dive-related injuries. A "covered dive" is described as a recreational dive or diving while a scuba instructor, dive master, underwater photographer, or while performing research under the auspices and following the diving safety guidelines of the American Academy of Underwater Scientists (AAUS). A dive begins upon entry into the water and ends upon exit from the water. A Covered Dive must begin while Coverage is in force."

 

[kathydee]

<disclaimer> I am not a caver.

I've dove Chandelier Cave. It was advertised as a fun dive that was very benign. My thoughts after the dive:

• The first chamber has natural daylight and is a cavern.
• The rest of the chambers are cave dives.
• I watched a low-time rototiller turn the 3rd chamber into a silt out.
• The tops of the caverns are not smooth. It is possible to ascend into a hard ceiling under water, and no clue which way to the air pocket.
• There is no line.
• From the last two chambers, the exit is not immediately obvious even with a can light.
• I exited from the dive astounded at the loose and easy way rules get broken in the name of tourist dollars.

It's a cave.


All the best, James

It's good to see that you concerned about safety enough to seek advice before doing the dive.

I am a full cave diver and hold an Advanced Wreck Penetration card. I have seen the cave environment go from seeming benign to completely disorientating in less than 30 seconds.

I have also seen many OW cavern divers (without overhead training) ignorantly follow guides trying to make a buck into risky situations that I would not consider. Usually they make it out, but just keep in mind that no OW diver enters an overhead expecting things to go sideways. Those who are trained for cave hope for the best but plan for the worst case scenario.

While admittedly I don't know this cave, nor can I give advice specific to the location. I do know the above SB member, and trust his advice from an OW perspective.

The best advice I can give here is: If you are attracted to caves and caverns - just go seek proper training before exploring. The caves are amazing!

Please be careful!

 

[DevonDiver]

DAN's Master and Preferred plans covered any dive-related injuries. A "covered dive" is described as a recreational dive or diving while a scuba instructor, dive master, underwater photographer, or while performing research under the auspices and following the diving safety guidelines of the American Academy of Underwater Scientists (AAUS). A dive begins upon entry into the water and ends upon exit from the water. A Covered Dive must begin while Coverage is in force."

Thanks for that. I've highlighted a key clause that you appear to have overlooked. "A recreational dive". Ergo... if the dive was classified (as per the major scuba agencies and community) as a cave dive... then it ceases to be a recreational dive.... and insurance cover ceases to be valid?

That'd be something I'd want to clarify, in writing, from my insurance provider prior to making the dive. YOU may not agree with the community definitions of cave/cavern, or the recommendations associated with those definitions... but I have a strong suspicion that a lawyer, or claims adjudicator, might.

DAN is probably one of the fairest and most diver-friendly (in every sense of the word) insurance agencies around. I've know of divers who have had insurance cover nullified because they've exceeded qualifications - and gotten caught out by the small print.

Here's some quotes from ACTUAL insurance policies. Note that these are specific diving policies...and not general travel/holiday insurance (which are even less lenient):

Westfield Sub Aqua & Marine Insurance Services Ltd
The Underwriters shall not be liable for any claim if the Sub Aqua activities giving rise to any claim hereunder are not being carried out at the time of the incident strictly in accordance with BSAC/PADI/SSAC/SAA/CFT/TDI regulations and for private, pleasure and amateur purposes only[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif].

Multi-trip
[/FONT]Scuba diving to the following depths. Provided you are diving under the direction of an accredited dive marshal, instructor or guide. Alternatively, if qualified, within the guidelines of the relevant diving or training agency or organization and not diving alone. We must agree with any equivalent qualification. If you do not hold a qualification, We will only cover you to dive to a depth of 18 metres.

I could find many more examples - as most policies have that clause, or similar.

Agency guidelines... it pays to know them.
â&#8364;&#8249;

 

[Dr. Doug Ebersole]

As a cave diver & technical diving instructor, I must admit that I had a little trepidation when I heard about dive operators taking open water divers into Chandelier "CAVES". I just got back from a visit there last month aboard the Ocean Hunter III and I think they did a good job of explaining the dive in the dive briefing to allow divers to decide for themselves whether they wanted to participate in the dive. About 1/2 of our group opted out. There were eight of us who went -- four full cave trained and four experienced open water divers. Before anyone flames me, I fully appreciate that no level of open water training prepares a diver for a CAVE dive. My point is that they were all very comfortable in the water, comfortable in a dark environment, and were comfortable in their skills. I would consider this dive similar to open water divers in the cenotes in Mexico, but even safer as there is always the option of a direct ascent to an air chamber.

The dive itself is a series of four chambers, each of which allow a direct ascent to the surface should a diver have an out of air situation. The guide leads the divers in and out but should the guide have a problem or a diver become separated from the group somehow, the diver could easily get out as there is only one way in or out and there are four air pockets along the way. It is very dark, however, and I recommended to our open water divers that opted to go to take multiple lights -- similar to cave diving.

Putting all of that together, I feel being at least cavern certified would be ideal as you are in an "overhead" environment of sorts, but this is not a true "CAVE" dive in the true sense of the word. Personally, I think the dive operators should provide a thorough and detailed briefing so that each diver can make up their own mind as to whether they want to participate in the dive.

It is a truly beautiful dive that should not be missed -- if you have appropriate training, experience, and comfort .

Here are a few images:

 

[kathydee]

Beautiful pictures !

I remember learning to dive in SE Asia. With an AOW card in my pocket and less than 50 dives in my log book, I was often the most experienced and comfortable client on the boat. Compared to some of the other clients, my skills were solid. Over time I learned than the degree of "being experienced and comfortable underwater" differs with perception. Also, not all guides, briefings or tours are equal.

It might be fine, but it's worth mentioning since the OP's status suggests less than 50 dives.

 

[Mossman]

Thanks for that. I've highlighted a key clause that you appear to have overlooked. "A recreational dive". Ergo... if the dive was classified (as per the major scuba agencies and community) as a cave dive... then it ceases to be a recreational dive.... and insurance cover ceases to be valid?

No, that's entirely incorrect. DAN does not define recreational dive. In context, it's clear it's differentiating recreational dive from professional dive or scientific dive. My tech diving was certainly covered and I have no doubt cave diving is as well. Do you really believe all those Florida cave divers are ineligible for DAN insurance?

I could find many more examples - as most policies have that clause, or similar.

I'm not looking for other policies since we were specifically talking about DAN's policies.

For instance, in the General FAQ on the DAN insurance site, you'll find the following language: "A Covered Diving Accident means DCI as a result of a Covered Dive within the 130-foot (40-meter) limit. For Preferred and Master Plans only, it means DCI or an injury as the result of a Covered Dive, regardless of the depth."

Doesn't that imply that Preferred and Master plans do not have a 130' depth limit? But how can that be if a dive deeper than 130' is beyond the recreational dive guidelines as set forth by PADI et al.? I rest my case.

If you'd like me to call them for the definitive answer, fine. But before I go to that effort, there has to be money riding on the outcome.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm not looking for other policies since we were specifically talking about DAN's policies.

No...we were talking about the possibility that a diver's medical/accident insurance may be invalid, should they attempt to dive Chandalier Cave without cavern/cave training.

Again, please don't interpret that I'm trying to use this as 'ammunition' to win a debate. Answering the OP's question - I just want to raise the issue of insurance coverage - and the relevance of 'training level versus diving activity' and 'agency rules/recommendations' within the small print of insurance certificates. It's just another factor that a diver should be cognizant of, when making a personal decision about doing a particular dive, or not.

If you'd like me to call them for the definitive answer, fine. But before I go to that effort, there has to be money riding on the outcome.

The point being - that doubt exists. Such matters aren't necessarily clear-cut. Neither of us needs to start calling insurance companies - but any diver who was considering actually doing the dive in question might want to do so. For them... in the instance of an accident/rescue/medical treatment resulting from doing that dive... there would be money riding on the outcome....lots of it.

Should an accident occur on a dive, the insurance company would investigate the circumstances. Once aware of the dive site/conditions, they'd then classify that dive - using industry/community definitions (they wouldn't come to Scubaboard... or you... or the local dive operators for that definition), they then might then consult the "agency rules" pertaining to that classification of dive and contrast them against the victims training/qualification. As illustrated in the quotes I provided earlier, that could lead to insurance pay-out being denied.

The OP asks "as an AOW diver, should I dive Chandelier Cave". I merely suggest that medical insurance validity be examined as part of his decision-making process.

 

[Mossman]

Again, please don't interpret that I'm trying to use this as 'ammunition' to win a debate. Answering the OP's question - I just want to raise the issue of insurance coverage - and the relevance of 'training level versus diving activity' and 'agency rules/recommendations' within the small print of insurance certificates. It's just another factor that a diver should be cognizant of, when making a personal decision about doing a particular dive, or not.

Then you make a great case towards purchasing DAN insurance rather than the competitors. DAN covers Chandelier Cave at a reasonable price, why would anyone want to buy coverage that might exclude such dives?

 

[DevonDiver]

1) Most/many recreational divers rely on generic holiday insurance for diving.
2) Other divers may not have access to DAN and/or may be recommended alternatives on a regional basis (the Westfield one I quoted is v.popular in the UK).
3) We have not concluded DAN's policy on overhead environment - especially in relationship with diving qualifications.
4) As you said, people use DAN to dive caves in Florida - but those people are certified cave divers. The point being, certification versus activity.
5) Most other insurance providers do specifically exclude cave/cavern diving from their regular insurance - requiring addendum policies/charges for that coverage.

DAN is a great insurance provider, but they are still under-written by regionally based insurance companies. This means there IS variation regionally... and also, there is fine print/clauses that may not necessarily be stated in the handbook (although DAN may still honor the basis agreement).

From the quote below, you can see that DAN Asia-Pacific and DAN Europe could present complications for an AOW diver doing a 'by definition' cavern/cave dive. DAN USA might not - but, but that isn't certain, as the underlying caveat with any insurance, including DAN, is that the policy holder needs to contact/confirm such issues with the provider. In the case of DAN USA, it may be a case of omission from the published schedules... or it may be that they have a very widely scoped policy. Unless you know for sure... it's your responsibility to confirm it... not DAN's.

Here's an interesting clause, stated by DAN (albeit from their Asia-Pacific regional):

Undertaking a dive, a Repetitive Dive Series, a scuba diving activity or snorkelling or breathhold diving activity in a manner which the Member knew, or reasonably should have known would expose them to an obvious risk of suffering an injury or illness.

In the case of "reasonably knowing"... I suspect that agency 'rules'...and what is taught to divers on courses (i.e. the safe diving practices and qualification relevant recommendations) would be the determining factor.


And also, check out this Policy Exclusion from DAN Europe... it's quite specific:

Material fact means facts about you or your activities that are likely to influence us in accepting your insurance. This includes medical conditions that may disqualify you from diving or your diving activities where these are not within the safe practices published by reputable diving bodies. If you have any doubt as to whether a fact is &#8216;material&#8217; you should tell us in writing by e-mail or for medical material facts by completing a medical self declaration form .

In addition, DAN Europe specifically excludes cave/cavern diving from it's 'search and recovery' insurance schedule:




Also, as an off-topic aside (but relevant for yourself, as you are a technical diver)... DAN does have policy exclusions that differentiate between recreational and technical diving. There may be variation regionally, but this is what the DAN Europe policy states:

Recreational Diving means all snorkelling, and recreational Diving Activities carried out by the Insured as stated in the Schedule or Certificate attached to this Policy with or without breathing apparatus whether as a student or not including:
&#8226; Compressed air diving in any form;
&#8226; Enriched air &#8220;nitrox&#8221; diving with fixed percentages with an open circuit or a &#8220;rebreather&#8221;;
&#8226; The use of oxygen enriched air or of oxygen to maximize decompression safety;
&#8226; The use of normoxic &#8220;Trimix&#8221; mixtures at depths less than 50m to minimize the narcotic effects of compressed air;
DAN Europe recommends gas partial pressures up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 5,6ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture.
&#8226; Technical Diving as defined subject to the medically recommended gas partial pressures of 1,4ATA Oxygen or up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 3,95ATA Nitrogen in the
breathing mixture.

Technical Diving means dives conducted with the use of variable gas mixtures (Nitrogen-HeliumOxygen otherwise called Trimix or Helium &#8211; Oxygen otherwise called Heliox) up to depths not exceeding 130 metres. On written submission of a full dive profile and proposed safety and support measures insurers may consider providing specific per dive insurance for any dive exceeding 130 metres and/or the maximum gas partial pressure limits allowed above.