Chandelier Cave - safe for AOW diver?

[DevonDiver]

1) Most/many recreational divers rely on generic holiday insurance for diving.
2) Other divers may not have access to DAN and/or may be recommended alternatives on a regional basis (the Westfield one I quoted is v.popular in the UK).
3) We have not concluded DAN's policy on overhead environment - especially in relationship with diving qualifications.
4) As you said, people use DAN to dive caves in Florida - but those people are certified cave divers. The point being, certification versus activity.
5) Most other insurance providers do specifically exclude cave/cavern diving from their regular insurance - requiring addendum policies/charges for that coverage.

DAN is a great insurance provider, but they are still under-written by regionally based insurance companies. This means there IS variation regionally... and also, there is fine print/clauses that may not necessarily be stated in the handbook (although DAN may still honor the basis agreement).

From the quote below, you can see that DAN Asia-Pacific and DAN Europe could present complications for an AOW diver doing a 'by definition' cavern/cave dive. DAN USA might not - but, but that isn't certain, as the underlying caveat with any insurance, including DAN, is that the policy holder needs to contact/confirm such issues with the provider. In the case of DAN USA, it may be a case of omission from the published schedules... or it may be that they have a very widely scoped policy. Unless you know for sure... it's your responsibility to confirm it... not DAN's.

Here's an interesting clause, stated by DAN (albeit from their Asia-Pacific regional):

Undertaking a dive, a Repetitive Dive Series, a scuba diving activity or snorkelling or breathhold diving activity in a manner which the Member knew, or reasonably should have known would expose them to an obvious risk of suffering an injury or illness.

In the case of "reasonably knowing"... I suspect that agency 'rules'...and what is taught to divers on courses (i.e. the safe diving practices and qualification relevant recommendations) would be the determining factor. DAN is quite clear in supporting those practices and recommendations - and that is evident/illustrated throughout their websites.

Check out this Policy Exclusion from DAN Europe... it's quite specific:

Material fact means facts about you or your activities that are likely to influence us in accepting your insurance. This includes medical conditions that may disqualify you from diving or your diving activities where these are not within the safe practices published by reputable diving bodies. If you have any doubt as to whether a fact is ‘material’ you should tell us in writing by e-mail or for medical material facts by completing a medical self declaration form .

In essence, when you apply for insurance, you declare material fact about your diving circumstances. If you state that you are an AOW diver, that becomes a declaration that you will be be doing AOW dives... not cave or cavern dives. Not declaring that you will do cave dives, and then doing cave dives, can void your insurance. Again... the wording used specifically mentions 'safe practices', advised by 'diving bodies'.

In addition, DAN Europe specifically excludes cave diving from it's 'search and recovery' insurance schedule: http://www.daneurope.org/web/guest/free-student-cover1 So...if the student needs rescuing from the cave - any expenses accrued wouldn't be paid via insurance.

International DAN (IDAN) is comprised of independent DAN organizations based around the world that provide expert emergency medical and referral services to regional diving communities. These local networks have pledged to uphold DAN's mission and to operate under protocol standards set by the IDAN Headquarters....Each regional DAN is cognizant of the insurance regulations of its territory.

So.... even whilst we agree that DAN is possibly the most flexible and diver-friendly insurance provider - there are still huge discrepancies in the policy exclusions/small-print between different regions (or is there? is it just ommission of detail in the certificate/schedule?). The point being - the individual needs to CHECK... and also to factor this into a decision whether to conduct the dive.

For the diver.... exceeding your qualification, especially in respect to cave/cavern dives... presents the risk of invalidating your insurance.

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Also, as an off-topic aside (but relevant for yourself, as you are a technical diver)... DAN does have policy exclusions that differentiate between recreational and technical diving. There may be variation regionally, but this is what the DAN Europe policy states:

Recreational Diving means all snorkelling, and recreational Diving Activities carried out by the Insured as stated in the Schedule or Certificate attached to this Policy with or without breathing apparatus whether as a student or not including:
• Compressed air diving in any form;
• Enriched air “nitrox” diving with fixed percentages with an open circuit or a “rebreather”;
• The use of oxygen enriched air or of oxygen to maximize decompression safety;
• The use of normoxic “Trimix” mixtures at depths less than 50m to minimize the narcotic effects of compressed air;
DAN Europe recommends gas partial pressures up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 5,6ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture.
• Technical Diving as defined subject to the medically recommended gas partial pressures of 1,4ATA Oxygen or up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 3,95ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture.

Technical Diving means dives conducted with the use of variable gas mixtures (Nitrogen-HeliumOxygen otherwise called Trimix or Helium – Oxygen otherwise called Heliox) up to depths not exceeding 130 metres. On written submission of a full dive profile and proposed safety and support measures insurers may consider providing specific per dive insurance for any dive exceeding 130 metres and/or the maximum gas partial pressure limits allowed above.

 

[Mossman]

Also, as an off-topic aside (but relevant for yourself, as you are a technical diver)... DAN does have policy exclusions that differentiate between recreational and technical diving. There may be variation regionally, but this is what the DAN Europe policy states:

Not relevant to me since I'm an American with American DAN insurance. If Chandelier Cave were restricted to Americans, I'd have no problem with that

(The only exclusion I can find in American DAN policies is if the diver is under the influence of alcohol or drugs not prescribed by a physician. We don't even have that wussy depth limit of 130 meters in our policies. If I wanted to, I could dive to 500 feet without any training beyond OW and they'd happily cover me. However, I strongly recommend that any American DAN-covered divers not get drunk before diving Chandelier Cave.)

 

[NAM001]

wimw

i am only cavern certed but i can guarentee you,, things can turn to sh-t in a hand basket in a heart beat. i blew a wind 400 ft into a cave and silted out. the idea of direction and depth changes without visibility/lighting in the dark is a major issue if you are not prepared for it. for me it was a cake walk. i also started cave intro and failed because of causeing too much silting and RIGHTLY so. one can not appreciate the importance of lighting untill the instructor says lights out and and make your way out from 100 ft into a cave. that can be difficult enough with a line to follow let alone the scenereo posted. (no lines mentioned). knowing that things fail it seams unconciousable to enter such a relm with out legitimate and backup lighting for all. The discription of the caves seem to be easy but obviously went south somewhere with no way to recover. Lastly doing this with OW"S Not even AOW"S let alone the minumun cave/cavern instructed. This is simple... this is an overhead enviroment. If you silt or go dark and can not go to the light it is worse yet.

Sounds to me like not only a 100% avoidable incident. But a situation with a unrecoverable cost. I too would like to hear form some full cave divers to get a better feeling of the system involved.

DD and pwl, thanks for your feedback. It's interesting to read the views of an experienced cave diver and of someone else who has actually been there. Of course, it would be even better to have the opinion of a cave diver who has been there...

I like the 'worst case scenario' question... From what I understand, it may be something like:

- Losing orientation, buddy and the rest of the group e.g. because of silt-out
- Dive light failure
- Some emergency that can not be solved under water with my level of training / available gear, causing me to CESA (since no more buddy available), or being unable to find the exit and having to come up OOA
- Thus in both cases being 'stuck' in the chamber I'm in since exiting would require working dive gear and air (or would this not be the case and would a freediving exit be possible?)

I personally don't see this as a very dangerous situation: it's a question of waiting for someone to come and get me on their octo - assuming the swim-throughs are sufficiently large to pass side-by-side. Otherwise I would have to wait for a cave diver with a long hose You could even say this is less risky then a high-current OW environment where you drift away from the boat - at least here they know where to come and get you, right?

I guess a medical problem would be more annoying than in OW because evacuation is harder - but any level of training would not change that.

 

[Shasta_man]

<<don't pontificate>> but that would mean eliminating ALL of his posts?!

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Well, this thread has been valuable in at least one regard: I'm now doubly glad that I have DAN US insurance. This, however, is in error:

In the case of DAN USA, it may be a case of omission from the published schedules... or it may be that they have a very widely scoped policy. Unless you know for sure... it's your responsibility to confirm it... not DAN's.

If the policy is broadly inclusive (as DAN USA's is) and otherwise silent about the effect of diving beyond one's certification/training (as DAN USA's is), the responsibility is on the insurer to prove that the dive was still excluded from coverage. Not the other way around. Of course, since the whole point of the two more advanced DAN USA dive insurance plans is that there is no planned depth restriction... that'd be a hard thing to prove.


All the dangers he points out are valid and should be borne in mind when entering CC (whether in full cave gear or with a mask, fins, and a snorkle...), but ... with the numerous 'very low probability-very high cost' of occurance risks inherent in walking to the bathroom while still half asleep, showering on a slippery and potentially fatal hard surface, and then venturing out into a world filled with people and traffic and whatnot, I do wonder how DevonDiver gets out of bed every morning.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

FYI update: I contacted DAN USA for their understanding of "recreational dive" in DAN's policy definition of the term Covered Dive. Wane McNair's email back to me stated that the phrase means a dive that is "non-paid and not covered by workmen's compensation."

 

[jkelly1]

The nation of palau is located 960 kilometres to the east of the Philippines and about 7 degrees north of the equator. As well as the sites of blue holes and blue corner, there is the fabulous Chandelier Cave

 

[Scubagolf]

Yesterday we concluded a week on the Palau Siren, which was an excellent liveaboard experience. We are now on Yap for a 2nd week and a full trip report will follow when we get back home. My take on Chandelier Cave is it is a benign cavern dive suitable for guided divers with decent buoyancy control. I was able to easily see the ambient light from all the way back in the 4th chamber. Depth to the bottom was 40-60 feet and a silt out seems highly unlikely. This is not a cave dive. It is a cavern dive with 4 chambers where you come up in each chamber, and most remove their regs while checking out the chamber formations. The swim out from the furthest back chamber was about 30 secs, if that, which we did with all flashlights turned off. Bottom line? Properly guided, I think it is safer than the Cenotes cavern dives I have done, and by a wide margin.

 

[guamrider]

I've visited chandelier cave on both my trips to palau
.
I'd have no qualms about taking an adventure diver on this dive as part of a "cave diving experience" tour - the experience being that's it's dark. It's really no more dangerous than a night dive.

Investing in a cavern diving course to swim through chandelier cave would be like using a steam hammer to crack a walnut.

AAhhh.. a voice of reason arises. I've been there about 50 times over the years. As long as you use common sense and follow what the guides say you're fine. No training agency dictates what you'll do...common sense does.

Heres two videos from a tv show we did a few years ago on the cave. This one has the back chamber, this one the front room that a lot of divers don't know about.

 

[Worldwide Dive and Sail]

Yesterday we concluded a week on the Palau Siren, which was an excellent liveaboard experience. We are now on Yap for a 2nd week and a full trip report will follow when we get back home.

Hi Scubagolf

We are very pleased you had an excellent time with us in Palau and wish you all the best for your Yap diving also.....looking forward to your trip reports ;-)

Best wishes from the Siren Fleet team