certification limits and how they are considered now days....

[tursiops]

Any dive that goes past the NDLs and now requires stops based on a ceiling, IMO, is beyond recreational diving.

That is YOUR definition, TODAY.
It is clearly being pushed....the 40m/130 ft limit is not being extended (if anything, it is dropping back to 100 ft/30m because of gas density concerns), but the "limited ceilings" is beginning to appear. Swim-throughs, for example, are now OK; cavern classes are OK; both have overheads for perhaps a few minutes or more; so now limited deco is beginning to appear....luckily, WITH a required stage cylinder for extra gas and redundancy, along with gas-usage dive planning. Good. Definitely a transitiion rther than an arbitrary hard cut-off.
Hey, recreational diving did not used to include Nitrox. Things change.

 

[BoltSnap]

Hey, recreational diving did not used to include Nitrox. Things change.

Yes, it was considered "devil's gas" for some agencies (ahem, PADI early on before 1996-7).

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

That is YOUR definition, TODAY.
It is clearly being pushed....the 40m/130 ft limit is not being extended (if anything, it is dropping back to 100 ft/30m because of gas density concerns), but the "limited ceilings" is beginning to appear. Swim-throughs, for example, are now OK; cavern classes are OK; both have overheads for perhaps a few minutes or more; so now limited deco is beginning to appear....luckily, WITH a required stage cylinder for extra gas and redundancy, along with gas-usage dive planning. Good. Definitely a transitiion rther than an arbitrary hard cut-off.
Hey, recreational diving did not used to include Nitrox. Things change.

It is also a definition you prescribed to in this thread but now want to argue with me about.

For the record, it is not MY definition, it is the widely accepted definition of what is considered rec vs tech. If it changes, then so be it but as it sits, anything beyond the NDLs where there is a ceiling is no longer recreational.

I will end this here. If anyone else wants to tell me I am wrong or discuss the difference between rec and tech, I suggest going to the above link and bringing that thread back to life.

 

[BoltSnap]

I will end this here.

It is too early to end this late in the night. Still 3 - 4 hours before I fall asleep.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

It is too early to end this late in the night. Still 3 - 4 hours before I fall asleep.

It is early here, 0521 and I need another cup of coffee before I head to the shop and prep for taking out my divers for today.

 

[BoltSnap]

It is early here, 0521 and I need another cup of coffee before I head to the shop and prep for taking out my divers for today.

It is 23:26 now here in Libya. I stay up late doing work and, hopefully, bug you for a while.

 

[tursiops]

It is also a definition you prescribed to in this thread but now want to argue with me about.

For the record, it is not MY definition, it is the widely accepted definition of what is considered rec vs tech. If it changes, then so be it but as it sits, anything beyond the NDLs where there is a ceiling is no longer recreational.

I will end this here. If anyone else wants to tell me I am wrong or discuss the difference between rec and tech, I suggest going to the above link and bringing that thread back to life.

Who is arguing? It is also my definition...above 130 ft/40m, no deco diving, no overheads, Nitrox <=40%.

What I'm trying to say is that not all the agencies agree with us...GUE and SSI, for example.
Further, I'm saying things are changing. Nitrox changed; now it is OK. Cavern and swim-throughs are OK.
Yes, PADI put Tec 40 in the TecRec program...but they call in transitional, not technical.
Let's wait a few years and see if my prediction comes true: what will SDI do? Will any more agencies join SSI with "limited deco" under the recreational heading?

 

[Wibble]

This is you making stuff up. You have no idea what "most PADI instructors" have experience or knowledge of. You can guess but unless you can show me evidence in the form of a study or poll done by all PADI instructors, then it is mere speculation.

Also, you say that they will be teaching recreational diving. Again this is false. PADI instructors do teach tech, do all? Of course not, not even close to the majority as the majority of all scuba instructors are only recreational instructors. Does this mean that PADI rec instructors have no knowledge of tech? Neither you nor I can state that.

Also, being in a resort location has no bearing on if tech is taught or not. I teach tech and I live in Bali. I know many dive centers here that also teach and can cater to tech divers. As a matter a fact, a dive center I work closely with is a PADI IDC center and they teach tech on a regular basis.

Now I am not an active PADI instructor so it is not like I am defending my agency, but I will speak up when I see statements that specify an agency when there was no need to do so.

Scubaboard loves to PADI bash, it is something you have to deal with when you come here but it is also a reason many refuse to engage on this site. If you are a PADI instructor, the SB masses basically tell you that are crap and have no skills whatsoever.

So much for being inclusive to all in the dive industry. But hey, this has gotten way off topic from the OP so I will end this here and allow the conversation to get back certification limits, which for the agency I teach for a represent is 20m for OW , 35m for Advanced and 40m for Deep.

How many OW certs does PADI issue a year? Versus how many tech certs?

Most PADI instructors would have no experience nor knowledge of "technical diving". This is because they will be teaching recreational diving and statistically most training is done in resort locations.

Of course some PADI instructors will know about technical diving, but these will definitely be in the minority. There will be even fewer active technical divers who are PADI instructors, i.e. who actively dive with technical kit and procedures, as opposed to have done a tech course in the past.

 

[scubadada]

I simply can't understand why this topic is so difficult. Diving limits are for certification, not outside certification.

My OW cert dive depth in 1997 was to 60 feet. I did 35 dives between 60 and 99 ft and another 19 100 feet or more before I got AOW in 2004. My AOW deep dive was to 108 ft. I did another 5 dives over 100 ft before I did Deep Diver in 2005. My 3rd Deep Diver dive was to 130 ft. I did 4 dives a little over 130 feet over the next year.

I would imagine this is quite typical for many divers.

 

[drrich2]

Let's wait a few years and see if my prediction comes true: what will SDI do? Will any more agencies join SSI with "limited deco" under the recreational heading?

I predict within a few years that "limited decompression" (up to 10 to 15 mins) will become normalized within recreational diving...but only if a stage cylinder of 40 cuft or larger is carried, and is part of the gas plan. And still within "recreational" depths (40m/130 ft).

Swim-throughs, for example, are now OK; cavern classes are OK; both have overheads for perhaps a few minutes or more; so now limited deco is beginning to appear....luckily, WITH a required stage cylinder for extra gas and redundancy, along with gas-usage dive planning.

Is there a practical benefit to agencies doing that? Recreational divers were doing swim throughs for years; eventually the agencies apparently decided to acknowledge reality.

It's common for dive operators (e.g.: day boats, liveaboards) to forbid deco. diving on recreational trips. I don't know what % do, but from what I've seen it's common (I'm a rec. diver so I haven't been on any technical diving trips).

Let's say PADI does what you suggest, perhaps even going so far as to offer a new 'rec. deco.' specialty course with certification under the recreational dive certification listings. Is it likely that rec. dive operators will start allowing deco. diving on their trips? Technical divers qualified by competence and certification to do that are often not allowed to now. Would calling it recreational rather than technical diving change that?

Recreational dive op.s did swim throughs for years before I heard of recreational agencies acknowledging the 'no overheads in rec. diving' directive had some exceptions.