certification limits and how they are considered now days....

[drrich2]

if I ever let a certification agency tell me I have limits to my diving.

Semantics matter. Perhaps it would be useful to think of certification more in terms of an endorsement that one has training to a given standard, rather than an imposed restriction on what one is 'allowed' to do.

So, someone with PADI OW cert. is sort of 'endorsed' by PADI as having satisfactorily demonstrated adequate competence (I'll avoid the contentious 'mastery' term) at SCUBA diving in a range up to 60 feet deep. He might expand his competence to include responsible diving down to 130 feet over time, but absent further certification, PADI isn't willing to endorse that he's demonstrated that ability.

Similarly, a certification agency doesn't limit your diving, but places limits on the scope of what it is willing to endorse you've demonstrated competence at doing.

Insurance companies, and some dive op.s that feel beholden to their dictates, may then choose to only offer dive services to customers within the scope of what a recognized agency endorses them to do.

 

[Wookie]

Semantics matter. Perhaps it would be useful to think of certification more in terms of an endorsement that one has training to a given standard, rather than an imposed restriction on what one is 'allowed' to do.

So, someone with PADI OW cert. is sort of 'endorsed' by PADI as having satisfactorily demonstrated adequate competence (I'll avoid the contentious 'mastery' term) at SCUBA diving in a range up to 60 feet deep. He might expand his competence to include responsible diving down to 130 feet over time, but absent further certification, PADI isn't willing to endorse that he's demonstrated that ability.

Similarly, a certification agency doesn't limit your diving, but places limits on the scope of what it is willing to endorse you've demonstrated competence at doing.

Insurance companies, and some dive op.s that feel beholden to their dictates, may then choose to only offer dive services to customers within the scope of what a recognized agency endorses them to do.

Completely agree with this.

The rise of “dive operators” and readily available insurance has lead to folks believing that they are limited by their agency endorsement.

 

[Belzelbub]

The rise of “dive operators” and readily available insurance has lead to folks believing that they are limited by their agency endorsement.

Agency language on the various courses can also contribute to this. And I don't see them in any rush to clarify the language. After all, they are in the business of selling training. So it's good business for them if their students believe they need to take additional courses to go beyond 60'.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Well, yes, but I have a boat and a compressor.

well that's not a common scenario. It is possible for someone to buy gear, have their own compressor, and never take a course or anything. That's outside of the agency/dive shop world.

What percentage of divers have their own compressor? That segment of the dive population isn't really worth discussing. I didn't think we would.

 

[tursiops]

I think we will have a continued evolution by agencies moving the goal posts to increase their revenue.

It is also possible they are simply responding to consumer pressure.

 

[Wookie]

It is also possible they are simply responding to consumer pressure.

But is the consumer pressure healthy for the rest of the dive businesses?

People collect patches, decals, and certification cards. I have books full. (I paid for the original 5, the rest came gratis). Agencies exist to sell patches, decals, certification cards, and to publish manuals on how to dive.

But the agencies have taken it a step further by becoming the de facto scuba police, by convincing divers (and dive operators) that divers are limited to the depths posted in their training. Liability insurers have jumped on this bandwagon and stated that operators are required to check a divers certification card and hold them to that limit.

This has created great angst within the scuba community whether a charter boat is a taxi, responsible for safe passage to and from the dive site, or a baby-sitter, responsible for the diver while in the water. Additionally, if I take a passenger to a wall, where they could exceed their max depth, but brief them to stay shallower than their “maximum certified depth” (WTF is that?), but they lose control of buoyancy, bend, and end up in a wheelchair, am I as the dive operator liable for their poor buoyancy control? (Hint: that answer is yes)

This is directly a result of agencies who want to sell more patches, decals, c-cards, and books. Agencies are ultimately bad for the business of diving.

 

[tursiops]

But is the consumer pressure healthy for the rest of the dive businesses?

People collect patches, decals, and certification cards. I have books full. (I paid for the original 5, the rest came gratis). Agencies exist to sell patches, decals, certification cards, and to publish manuals on how to dive.

But the agencies have taken it a step further by becoming the de facto scuba police, by convincing divers (and dive operators) that divers are limited to the depths posted in their training. Liability insurers have jumped on this bandwagon and stated that operators are required to check a divers certification card and hold them to that limit.

This has created great angst within the scuba community whether a charter boat is a taxi, responsible for safe passage to and from the dive site, or a baby-sitter, responsible for the diver while in the water. Additionally, if I take a passenger to a wall, where they could exceed their max depth, but brief them to stay shallower than their “maximum certified depth” (WTF is that?), but they lose control of buoyancy, bend, and end up in a wheelchair, am I as the dive operator liable for their poor buoyancy control? (Hint: that answer is yes)

This is directly a result of agencies who want to sell more patches, decals, c-cards, and books. Agencies are ultimately bad for the business of diving.

You left out a line in your manifesto: "Therefore, consumers are the root cause of the demise of the business of diving."

 

[Wookie]

You left out a line in your manifesto: "Therefore, consumers are the root cause of the demise of the business of diving."

Consumers without their own boats and compressors, indeed.

But Wetb4 already calibrated me on that.

 

[drrich2]

You left out a line in your manifesto: "Therefore, consumers are the root cause of the demise of the business of diving."

I think it's our litigious society that externalizes blame. When an activity starts out, it may be 'under the radar,' and you can do what you want (and live or die with the consequences). It's not in the public eye, there aren't laws specific to it, nobody is specifically out to police it, etc...

I'm old enough to remember being a kid in the country whipping around rural roads on a 3-wheeler ATV with no helmet, no elbow or knee pads, exploring woodlands alone via dirt roads and basically doing things some of which could make a government agency crap their pants now. I watched a neighbor years ago with his little kids (I'm guessing around 4 or 5?) on bicycles with training wheels, not going fast, but with helmets, elbow and knee pads, looking outfitted for a roller derby instead of slowly peddling on a very un-busy little side street with their Dad. As a kid I roamed forest alone; now I hear of hiking trails where adults are warned not to get off the path, or follow an 'interpreter' around.

How much safety equipment and precaution under what circumstances and minors driving ATVs on public roads or the added value of professional guides isn't my point. My point is that some of us have lived in more independent, higher liberty environs where having to ask 'Mother, may I' and worrying about Big Brother weren't such issues.

Many of us would agree some regulation is a good thing - requiring at least an OW certification, restricting some cave diving sites to people with relevant training, etc... (note: some would say let adults be adults and let Darwin sort it out). But it's gotten out of hand.