Cayman and Captive Dolphins? Do you agree?

[Makin Raider]

This has been an emotion filled discussion and good to see that is can be debated. Seems someone has fouled up the poll since it "randomly" jumped up a few hundred replys on one side in < 10 minutes, so it goes. Well the poll was far from scientific.

I did think that some might find this site interesting.

http://captivitystinks.org/dolphins.html

 

[Lisa0825]

Hmmm... It says duplicate votes will be deleted. I wonder if that will happen? If so, why not just block the dupes in the first place so as not to skew the stats while it's on?

 

[Makin Raider]

Most of these polls use your IP address to keep tract of who voted. There are utilities out there that can mask or give a false IP address randomly, mostly in use for privacy issues. As far as the site is concerned it could be looked upon as different people.

 

[Xanthro]

You think children and people in wheel chairs have a unalienable right to everything they want?

I think that childern and people in wheel chairs should be afforded the opportunity to see many animals and develop and interest in them.

Introducing childern to animials is a method that allows future generations to appreciate the animals.

Most people who have never seen a dolphin or an orangutan are not going to care about them. Borneo habit is a meaningless term to someone who doesn't even know where Borneo is located. Limiting sonar use is not a concern for people who have never experienced dolphins or whales.

If you want to reduce the danger to wild animals, you have to introduce the population to those animals, otherwise not enough people are going to care and the animals will be lost.

Sorry not in my book. Children can dive when old enough and a lot of people in wheel chairs dive.

Let me say this so you can understand, people like you are a greater threat to the environment that most. Most people are just apathetic, you actually take stance that actively endangers species.

Many of you are reminding me of the fools who would have rather seen Califorina Condors go extinct rather than raise some in captivity for future release. I'm sorry, but that moral throne you people like to sit on is a pile of ****. It does nothing to further the cause of animal wellfare, but does much to sustain a personal sense of morale outrage and use this to feed a sense of moral superiority.

Now lets look at this in a different light. And advanced alien race finds earth and puts humans behind bars so that the public can view them. Never mind that the humans are not happy and live less than 1/2 there normal life span in the zoo, we must have them to show our children and invalids. Is that OK?

Let's say that this advanced alien race cared nothing about humans and wanted to talk all of Earth's water, but some aliens decided that humans are not to simply be destroyed and put such humans on display. Would I have a problem with this? Absolutely not. Even if their life span would be a third normal, because at least it's a life span.

In my life, I've seen most frogs disappear, loggerhead turtles are now as rare as hen's teeth, despite the fact I could find them all the time as a child. Getting people interested in these animals is the first step in saving them. If that means having them in Zoos, so be it.

 

[Xanthro]

BTW, divers who argue against Zoos are hyprocrites, since the very act of diving changes the environment that sea life lives in. When we dive we interfer with wildlife, we damage it, we change it, and never for the better.

While we may try to limit our damage, and good divers do try and limit damage, it's only a matter of degree not cause.

Zoos and other animal captive sites should try and make animals as comfortable and unstressed as possible, just as divers should try and leave the environment underwater as untouched as possible.

 

[Lisa0825]

Education is one thing, but I equate these dolphin programs more to a circus than a zoo. They make a mockery of the creatures, by submitting them to silly circus tricks... that doesn't teach any truth.

I think there are extremes and a middle ground to this argument. The extremes are "captive dolphins are just lovely and the dolphins are so happy there!" and "only evil people and idiots would promote the keeping of captive dolphins!" Now, somewhere in the middle there should be a place like "It is acceptable to have a small number of locations where captive dolphins are kept humanely with the largest pens possible, and they are used in a responsible way to educate the public about conservation." THAT is not what happens at most places. Some yes, but most are not treating them well and most find the most value in silly tricks to entertain audiences, not educational information.

 

[Xanthro]

Education is one thing, but I equate these dolphin programs more to a circus than a zoo. They make a mockery of the creatures, by submitting them to silly circus tricks... that doesn't teach any truth.

What's wrong with silly circus tricks?

Unless the animals is beaten into compliance to perform the trick, what is wrong with the trick?

Dolphins perform tricks in the wild, most mammals play. It's even a mammials trait.

Do you know if the dolphin doesn't like to perform? No, you don't. Some are more natural showoffs than others, and those at least seem to enjoy performing, something they do in the wild.

I think there are extremes and a middle ground to this argument. The extremes are "captive dolphins are just lovely and the dolphins are so happy there!" and "only evil people and idiots would promote the keeping of captive dolphins!" Now, somewhere in the middle there should be a place like "It is acceptable to have a small number of locations where captive dolphins are kept humanely with the largest pens possible, and they are used in a responsible way to educate the public about conservation." THAT is not what happens at most places. Some yes, but most are not treating them well and most find the most value in silly tricks to entertain audiences, not educational information.

Why a small number? Are dolphins so rare that somehow there should be a limit on the number that are humanely kept in captivity?

Should people in Texas get to see dolphins, but those in South Carolina should not, because we need to limit the number of sites?

BTW, silly tricks to entertain are educational about conservation. Connecting people wildlife equals support for wildlife. Even if it is wholly selfish such as thinking, "I want my granddaughter to one day take her child to see dolphins jump through hoops, so I want to ensure dolphins remain safe"

 

[Lisa0825]

What's wrong with silly circus tricks?

Unless the animals is beaten into compliance to perform the trick, what is wrong with the trick?

Dolphins perform tricks in the wild, most mammals play. It's even a mammials trait.

Do you know if the dolphin doesn't like to perform? No, you don't. Some are more natural showoffs than others, and those at least seem to enjoy performing, something they do in the wild.



Why a small number? Are dolphins so rare that somehow there should be a limit on the number that are humanely kept in captivity?

Should people in Texas get to see dolphins, but those in South Carolina should not, because we need to limit the number of sites?

BTW, silly tricks to entertain are educational about conservation. Connecting people wildlife equals support for wildlife. Even if it is wholly selfish such as thinking, "I want my granddaughter to one day take her child to see dolphins jump through hoops, so I want to ensure dolphins remain safe"

I don't know why I am bothering since I know you've got your mind made up that yours is the only right answer, but I'll hit a couple points anyway....

Most countries do not have much regulation for the treatment of animals. Very often, animals ARE starved or beaten or otherwise abused to train them. Even Chankanaab in Cozumel has lost too many dolphins over the years. How do YOU know that that dolphin jumping through the hoop is doing it because it's happy, and not because it was taught that it doesn't eat unless it jumps?

here's yet more info if you care to read, but I dobt you will...

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/what_are_the_issues/marine_mammals_in_captivity/index.html

 

[robbcayman]

Education is one thing, but I equate these dolphin programs more to a circus than a zoo. They make a mockery of the creatures, by submitting them to silly circus tricks... that doesn't teach any truth.

I think there are extremes and a middle ground to this argument. The extremes are "captive dolphins are just lovely and the dolphins are so happy there!" and "only evil people and idiots would promote the keeping of captive dolphins!" Now, somewhere in the middle there should be a place like "It is acceptable to have a small number of locations where captive dolphins are kept humanely with the largest pens possible, and they are used in a responsible way to educate the public about conservation." THAT is not what happens at most places. Some yes, but most are not treating them well and most find the most value in silly tricks to entertain audiences, not educational information.

My thoughts exactly. A few places with adequate space and proper care wouldn't be a crime in my eyes. However, I'm against these places who are just trying to get tourist dollars and don't care for the dolphins well being etc.. I don't mind dolphin tricks as long as they aren't doing them against their own will.

 

[Xanthro]

I don't know why I am bothering since I know you've got your mind made up that yours is the only right answer, but I'll hit a couple points anyway....

Most countries do not have much regulation for the treatment of animals. Very often, animals ARE starved or beaten or otherwise abused to train them. Even Chankanaab in Cozumel has lost too many dolphins over the years. How do YOU know that that dolphin jumping through the hoop is doing it because it's happy, and not because it was taught that it doesn't eat unless it jumps?

here's yet more info if you care to read, but I dobt you will...

So because most countries don't have laws regarding the treatment of animals, that should influence my decisions in the United States?

I'm sure that animals are abused, tortured and eaten in many countries. This doesn't apply here any more than 8 year olds getting married.

The question is whether Zoos and other captive animal programs where animals are treated humanely are moral or not.

I have no problems with captive animals if they are treated well. Many actually live longer in captivity than in the wild.

Do I know that a dolphin enjoys jumping through a hoop? No, because they can't talk or communicate with us in ways that guarantee true understanding. That said, since they play in the wild, and most tricks mimic that type of play, then it stands to reason that they enjoy such play. Could it be that really when dolphins do flips in the wild, or surf along the beach that really they are reacting to some great pain and distress? Yes, that could be true. That said, then really we shouldn't enjoy seeing them in the wild at all then should we.

I've read hundreds of such sites, and quite frankly most know nothing about animals, and that ignorance harms animals.

Take for instance domestic dogs. I've seen countless websites that are against crating. Crating is where you keep a dog in a crate during the day. They claim this is inhuman and cruel, when reality is the opposite.

If you leave the house and your dog tears up the carpet and pees on your bed, your dog is not taking revenge. Such a concept is beyond a dogs ability. Your dog is not mad at you either. The dog is simply confused because dogs like routine. Anything that upsets their routine upsets them. Dogs also like boundaries, and when left alone often have a difficutly with boundaries because there is nobody around to correct them.

When you crate a dog, it creates comfort for them. The feel safe because they know what to expect.

My dog has full roaming in my house, despite the fact there are antiques everywhere and the house itself is 130 years old with irreplacable molding. Nothing is every torn (Expect toilet paper which he likes to eat) or damaged. When he was a puppy we'd crate him. Now, if we are not home and he's uncomfortable, he goes into his crate. Often even if we are home, he'll sleep in his crate during the day. It's his home. He knows it belongs to him, and he knows he is safe there.

I've know people who put their dogs to sleep, or turned them over to the pound, because they don't understand that dogs do not think like humans.

Treating a dog like a human leads to more dead dogs than treating a dog as it should be treated, like a dog. This doesn't mean beat your dog, or strike it. It means understanding that dog behavior is driven by something different than human behavior.