Cavern dive instructor recommendations

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Hmmm...explains why the caves in the front half are getting beat up. Sounds like lower levels are allowed sloppy performance and this is acceptable. But, I do know many cave instructors who don't subscribe to this.

Yes I know many who do not subscribe to this also. In fact this is a new attitude fostered by new cavern and cave instructors who just do not give a damn....

 

[bamafan]

Yes I know many who do not subscribe to this also. In fact this is a new attitude fostered by new cavern and cave instructors who just do not give a damn....

One problem I see in the Marianna area is one popular dive shop owner / instructor dives mainly with the old Hp 100's with angled valves. He teaches the way he dives but the issue is that he has the regs facing down in sidemount with the guages lollipoped. With the angled valves this is ok as the spg's point up. The problem is that most people don't dive the angled valves. So with the tanks rigged the way he teaches the spg's point down like curb feelers. The problem is also exaggerated by the SMS's that have the door handles on top of the wing. At the beginning of the dive the back of the tanks are jacked up as more air is in the wing. This angles the front of the tanks down more. Also with Faber tanks they get butt light at the end of the dive and cause the same problem. When you dive any of the caves on the Millpond you will see all kind of damage done by spg's dragging in the silt. Itis a shame because these caves don't reverse like the river caves do so that the damage is repaired. Teaching with the reg's facing up would eliminate a lot of damage.

 

[karstdvr]

Yes I know many who do not subscribe to this also. In fact this is a new attitude fostered by new cavern and cave instructors who just do not give a damn....

Your right Jim, the survey that was done shows how little cave conservation training new students get

---------- Post added September 27th, 2015 at 05:38 AM ----------

One problem I see in the Marianna area is one popular dive shop owner / instructor dives mainly with the old Hp 100's with angled valves. He teaches the way he dives but the issue is that he has the regs facing down in sidemount with the guages lollipoped. With the angled valves this is ok as the spg's point up. The problem is that most people don't dive the angled valves. So with the tanks rigged the way he teaches the spg's point down like curb feelers. The problem is also exaggerated by the SMS's that have the door handles on top of the wing. At the beginning of the dive the back of the tanks are jacked up as more air is in the wing. This angles the front of the tanks down more. Also with Faber tanks they get butt light at the end of the dive and cause the same problem. When you dive any of the caves on the Millpond you will see all kind of damage done by spg's dragging in the silt. Itis a shame because these caves don't reverse like the river caves do so that the damage is repaired. Teaching with the reg's facing up would eliminate a lot of damage.

This is a great explanation, but doesn't offer a reason for passages that are big enough to drive an SUV through that has the floor looking like a freshly plowed field. This is perhaps one element to a huge problem.

But, cave divers are taught (hopefully) to apply critical thinking and make changes. For example, if I am going down a passage and I am dragging an spg,then time for a gear modification.

 

[rddvet]

This is a great explanation.

It reads more like one more dig at Edd. I get it. I took classes with Edd too, and as I've progressed with my diving I don't subscribe to everything he teaches anymore either. It's a starting point, just like any other instructor's sm class. Take the principles away and keep learning.

Every fifth post by the group of Edd to Rob defectors is a dig on what Edd teaches. You guys don't all get along anymore, we get it. But this veil of secrecy of who you're talking about is thin and getting a little played now.

And no, I don't want 3 pm's about my comment. I rarely check my pm's here, so say it in the thread if you have any commentary. I just say keep the anti-edd rhetoric to a minimum.

 

[nakatomi]

It's a starting point, just like any other instructor's sm class. Take the principles away and keep learning.

First of all I have no idea who besides your instructor teaches to dive the first stages facing down and the SPG's forward.
As far as I know the method is also used in the Dive Rite ring bungee system, which has a similar setup with the SPG's facing down.
So I would hazard a guess that your SM instructor is not the only one teaching it.

When I started diving in SM like that back in 2012, I had my tanks set up in the same fashion - because a very respected instructor told me it was the only right way to do it and I trusted him. And against the recommendation of my back then SM instructor, I was a being smarty pants and dove with my SPG's face down.
Sadly I found out the hard way that this was not a good idea. On a dive through a very low rocky section in Peacock (taking a shortcut exiting the Peanut tunnel) my brand new plastic face SPG's got caught on the floor, the hoses bent almost 180 degrees and the SPG faces were scratched up very badly.
I was actually lucky the HP hoses weren't torn off right there. FWIW, both hoses blew within months of that incident...
Needless to say, had the floor been clay it would have gotten the typical "track marks" that we can see all over the caves with clay floor now. With it being rock, the only damage was to my SPG's and hoses and it was well deserved.

It's really a no-brainer to see that part of the huge floor damage in the Marianna area (e.g. Twin Caves) is indeed caused by this method. So without pointing a finger at one individual person, whoever is teaching it this way, is not doing the community a favor.

 

[karstdvr]

It reads more like one more dig at Edd. I get it. I took classes with Edd too, and as I've progressed with my diving I don't subscribe to everything he teaches anymore either. It's a starting point, just like any other instructor's sm class. Take the principles away and keep learning.

Every fifth post by the group of Edd to Rob defectors is a dig on what Edd teaches. You guys don't all get along anymore, we get it. But this veil of secrecy of who you're talking about is thin and getting a little played now.

And no, I don't want 3 pm's about my comment. I rarely check my pm's here, so say it in the thread if you have any commentary. I just say keep the anti-edd rhetoric to a minimum.

You are right,this same thing exploded last weekend on CDF with digs at the two shops in Marianna. What amazes me is how in the 20 years I have been cave diving how technology has improved the sport, as well as other things, but the people haven't changed. I remember breath short hose versus Hogarthian, Branford dive center customers versus Steamboat customers, WKPP versus everyone else, this regional dive shop customers versus this other regional dive shop. Where the sport has evolved the garage hasn't. What I find amusing is people will put this under cave politics and blame it on that,but in reality the participants in cave diving that support this drama fest are the real source of cave politics. Personally I am beyond who does what. What is of concern is regardless of the angling of valves etc, why are big bore hole passages getting floor damage, or damage period. My thoughts are instead of the blame game, accept personal responsibility, fix your problem that is causing damage, or get out of cave diving.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2015 at 07:53 AM ----------

It's really a no-brainer to see that part of the huge floor damage in the Marianna area (e.g. Twin Caves) is indeed caused by this method. So without pointing a finger at one individual person, whoever is teaching it this way, is not doing the community a favor.

To me, especially in sidemounting, the instructor sets the basis,but as your cave diving evolves, one should know how to tweak your gear to accommodate a passage. If I dove the configuration I was first taught,it would not work well at some of the places I go to, simply I made adjustments. So go back to what I said,I tend not to look at the instructor,but the diver,because if they look at their configuration as a rigid unchangeable package, and they are damaging the cave,then they have some serious self reflection.

 

[nakatomi]

What is of concern is regardless of the angling of valves etc, why are big bore hole passages getting floor damage, or damage period. My thoughts are instead of the blame game, accept personal responsibility, fix your problem that is causing damage, or get out of cave diving.
[...]
To me, especially in sidemounting, the instructor sets the basis,but as your cave diving evolves, one should know how to tweak your gear to accommodate a passage. If I dove the configuration I was first taught,it would not work well on some of the places I go to, simply I made adjustments. So go back to what I said,I tend not to look at the instructor,but the diver,because if they look at their configuration as a rigid unchangeable package, and they are damaging the cave,then they have some serious self reflection.

As far as I am concerned, the angling of the valves with SPG's facing down is a huge problem, even in large passage.

If the line is run close to the floor, OK'ing it (in zero or low vis) will cause badly configured equipment to damage the floor.
That would explain the SPG track marks that have been appearing in a lot of passages close to the line.

I do agree that it's of no use to put the blame on somebody specific, that's just counter productive.
Having said that, we've known this for YEARS and discussed it many times. And still new cave divers are produced, set up with this configuration?
To me it shouldn't be taught like that for cave diving in the first place. Why is it still being taught like that?

Maybe, and to get back on topic, Max can enlighten us how his instructor teaches it to him in cavern and intro to cave diving.

 

[karstdvr]

As far as I am concerned, the angling of the valves with SPG's facing down is a huge problem, even in large passage.

If the line is run close to the floor, OK'ing it (in zero or low vis) will cause badly configured equipment to damage the floor.
.

Just find it hard to imagine how a passage that has 6ft floor to ceiling height has damage on the floor. Are people using 36" high pressure hoses for their SPGs now???

 

[The Chairman]

I'm pretty tired of the Edd vs Rob fracas as well. It's silting out discussions and posting anything that differs from how they do it results in an accusation of being some sort of "dig" against them. I don't hear this from Edd and Rob, only their fans, so let's stop beating that horse.

It doesn't matter what you're diving whether it be back or side mount, drooping gauges or not. If the floors are getting 'plowed', then it's a much bigger issue of trim, buoyancy and situational awareness. It could be that they are out of damns to give and need to get out of the sport.

 

[nakatomi]

Just find it hard to imagine how a passage that has 6ft floor to ceiling height has damage on the floor. Are people using 36" high pressure hoses for their SPGs now???

If the line is run along the floor and people are on the line due to low/zero vis, the height of the passage is not of much use.

I spent a great deal of time analyzing the damage in the Marianna caves, especially in Twin Caves and Jackson Blue.
As you mentioned, there are quite a few different different reasons for the damage, pretty much all of them due to lack of skills and especially lack of caring about the caves.

Apart from the SPG issues we talked about, there are scooter prop marks on the floor, hand and find marks, fist marks, stage tank marks, ceiling breakoff due to floaty stages. Basically the whole range one could imagine, including full body imprints in the clay.

Some of it may be more or less unavoidable at times, but the sheer range of damage suggests that some people are not very concerned about the state they leave the caves in.

So to get back to the cavern/cave instructor recommendation. Based on this damage, finding an instructor with a high awareness for cave awareness would, in general, be highly beneficial to all of us.