Cavern dive instructor recommendations

[The Chairman]

Because we on SB often recommend Cavern as a next step recreational course

Bingo. Yahtzee. I suggest this to all my OW graduates.

 

[CptTightPants21]

The amount of chest beating in the later half of this thread is almost deafening. I know I am going to regret this.

Assisting a student to improve buoyancy, propulsion and trim is not the same as teaching it from the beginning. As DevonDiver recently said in another thread, paraphrasing, no diver is perfect, we all have something to learn, including improving buoyancy and trim.

Superlyte27 from your website Cavern Diver - Underwater Adventures Ultimate Cave Diving

Cavern Diver

"You will be run through tasks that test your buoyancy, trim and awareness. We'll teach you propulsion techniques that might be new or unfamiliar."

NSS-CDS, NACD, TDI, PSAI all mention either buoyancy, trim, propulsion or swimming skills in their course content for Cavern. And these are just the course outlines/descriptions I looked at.

NSS-CDS specifically mentions that ...

"The cavern diver course is setup to meet two different ends. The first is as a stand alone course for people who want to take a peek inside the caverns in a safe manner.The second is as the starting point for people who want to continue on to becoming certified as cave divers.

The cavern diver course provides the framework for all cavern and cave diving."

As I said, I am not an instructor. Just a beginner cave diver with a lot to learn. The last few posts are exactly why I asked the op his intention in taking the course early in the thread.

Why do I pursue this? Because we on SB often recommend Cavern as a next step recreational course to relatively newish divers that are interested in improving and progressing in diving, but not necessarily progressing to cave. Much as stuartv's inquiry. If cave instructors feel that this is not appropriate, even though it seems to be supported by numerous cave agencies, this needs to be made clearer to the OP and any others that are considering Cavern to improve their fundamental dive skills and awareness.

I think Superlyte27 and others are saying is that Intro to Tech and/or experience is where a diver is introduced to the different kicks, increased control, liftbag, stable airshares, etc. I would never (nor have I ever seen it) where a new diver or diver with only AOW was told to go take Cavern without an intro to tech course. I don't even think a cavern/cave instructor would take a student who didn't have an intro to tech cert or at least prove that they are relatively stable in the water.

"test your buoyancy, trim and awareness"......test, not teach how to have it in the first place. A cavern course is not the class where you try out your first frog kick.

"The cavern diver course is setup to meet two different ends. The first is as a stand alone course for people who want to take a peek inside the caverns in a safe manner.The second is as the starting point for people who want to continue on to becoming certified as cave divers."

Neither of those two points hint at learning basic skills, both have an unwritten/implied competence in the water. One is to progress to full cave, the other is being able to conduct yourself in an overhead environment where the exit is readily known. Do you need to be perfect for cavern, absolutely not. But if you can't frog kick (let alone back and helicopter) and repeatedly lose control on buoyancy when tasked loaded then a cavern course is not for you.

---------- Post added September 23rd, 2015 at 09:47 PM ----------

Bingo. Yahtzee. I suggest this to all my OW graduates.

Really? Cavern? Not fundies, intro to tech, Essentials, or even AOW?

 

[The Chairman]

Really? Cavern? Not fundies, intro to tech, Essentials, or even AOW?

Ya, rly. My OW and Trim/Buoyancy/Propulsion graduates are ready for it. The skills aren't that hard to teach: you just have to care enough to follow through on it.

 

[uncfnp]

I am sorry CptTightPants21 but in this case you are simply wrong. There may be one but I know no agency that teaches cavern that requires Intro to Tech or similar. Cavern is a RECREATIONAL level course and can be done in recreational gear. Some agencies require as few as 10 dives. AOW or equivalent is required by some.

GUE is not included because GUE does not have a Cavern course.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Ya, rly. My OW and Trim/Buoyancy/Propulsion graduates are ready for it. The skills aren't that hard to teach: you just have to care enough to follow through on it.

So they have to show a degree of precision in the water (say +/- 5ft?) and have demonstrated additional kicks including the frog in order to pass T/B/P?

If Yes to the above that is essentially the foundational skill found in an intro to tech/fundies class and yes they would be able to take cavern. I still think my point stands.

---------- Post added September 23rd, 2015 at 10:12 PM ----------

I am sorry CptTightPants21 but in this case you are simply wrong. There may be one but I know no agency that teaches cavern that requires Intro to Tech or similar. Cavern is a RECREATIONAL level course and can be done in recreational gear. Some agencies require as few as 10 dives. AOW or equivalent is required by some.

GUE is not included because GUE does not have a Cavern course.

I'll stand corrected on the intro to tech, but TDI cave requires 25 dives and Naui requires at least advanced.

 

[Peter Guy]

For what it's worth, I made my comment about learning all you can of the open water skills BEFORE you take Cavern came from my experience in taking Cavern. (Note -- I've only taken one GUE class and that was enough.)

Lynne and I took Cavern after passing Fundies and taking some rec/tec training such that we were comfortable with our non-silting kicks and using doubles. The third person in our Cavern class had none of those and was in doubles for the first time. Because our basic skills were absolutely solid, whereas the third person's was not, we got a LOT more out of the class than he did.

It just make sense (to me) to have the "basic skills" really solid before adding the cave specific skills. But maybe I'm just a slow learner.

 

[The Chairman]

So they have to show a degree of precision in the water (say +/- 5ft?) and have demonstrated additional kicks including the frog in order to pass T/B/P?

+/- 5 ft would be a fail next to a reef. It would be OK for a safety stop, but they are usually within a foot or better on the reef. Are they perfect? By no means. They have the tools but they still have to perfect them. That's why I encourage them to go for cavern.

If Yes to the above that is essentially the foundational skill found in an intro to tech/fundies class and yes they would be able to take cavern. I still think my point stands.

What was your point again? I must have missed it.

 

[uncfnp]

For what it's worth, I made my comment about learning all you can of the open water skills BEFORE you take Cavern came from my experience in taking Cavern. (Note -- I've only taken one GUE class and that was enough.)

Lynne and I took Cavern after passing Fundies and taking some rec/tec training such that we were comfortable with our non-silting kicks and using doubles. The third person in our Cavern class had none of those and was in doubles for the first time. Because our basic skills were absolutely solid, whereas the third person's was not, we got a LOT more out of the class than he did.

It just make sense (to me) to have the "basic skills" really solid before adding the cave specific skills. But maybe I'm just a slow learner.

Again, speaking as a student, it depends on the goals of the student. And how you define"really solid." Not all divers want to go the Fundies route and yet they want to be better divers. To me, who better to teach to the level of BPT needed in caverns/caves then the cave instructors themselves. Teach the diver correctly from the start so they don't have to unlearn poorly taught techniques by less skilled instructors.

 

[The Chairman]

Teach the diver correctly from the start so they don't have to unlearn poorly taught techniques by less skilled instructors.

Amen, bro! However, it's not that many of these instructors are 'less skilled' but that they don't know any better. They're not bad, they just have bought into the old way of teaching.

 

[Randy g]

Ummmm Pete.......Bro is a sista.

We (myself and 2 dive buddies) did Cavern a couple of years ago, once I felt that we were all togather enough in our skill levels to take it. When I started looking for an instructor I went straight to the top of the ladder (imho) and hired Jim Wyatt, training director for NSS/CDS.

After a couple years diving caverns and using our newly learned skills in wrecks our next step is the learning process is intro and full cave. We now have a date set with Edd to complete our cave certifications. I am in sm now and the other 2 are still in bm.

I believe in hiring the best (in my mind) when it comes to learning about type of diving. I know there are a lot of great instructors out there but the guys that teach the teachers, are who I want to learn from. :cool2: