Cavern dive instructor recommendations

[uncfnp]

...//... but the bar is set progressively higher as you continue your overhead training. This was my experience, anyway.

Thank you. Yes, that is it exactly.

 

[karstdvr]

I think what uncfnp was saying is that having a good handle on buoyancy and trim is a prerequisite for completing Cavern, but the bar is set progressively higher as you continue your overhead training. This was my experience, anyway.

Hmmm...explains why the caves in the front half are getting beat up. Sounds like lower levels are allowed sloppy performance and this is acceptable. But, I do know many cave instructors who don't subscribe to this.

 

[Peter Guy]

While alluded to several times, I just want to add:

Before you take ANY cave class, learn, practice, get proficient at the "non-cave" skills -- buoyancy control, non-silting kicks, doubles use -- before starting the cave program. Even if you never take the cave class, becoming actually proficient at the "non-cave" skills will make the rest of your diving much more fun. Then, if/when you do take any cave class, you can spend the time on the cave specific skills and actually get your monies' worth.

(Note -- go to Mexico and learn there! Flow is a pain.)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Peter's comment sounds like what I understand to be GUE's philosophy. There's no cavern training per se. If you want to train in an overhead environment of any kind, you first have to perfect your fundamental skills.

 

[MikeT73]

Hmmm...explains why the caves in the front half are getting beat up. Sounds like lower levels are allowed sloppy performance and this is acceptable. But, I do know many cave instructors who don't subscribe to this.

Kelly you're taking this way too far and not even listening. It's not an absolute and your correlation is weak at best. Actually, there's a thread going on over at CDF where many are experiencing quite the opposite. And need I remind you about the Whale Bone? I'm sure that was a sloppy Intro diver. Right?

Anyway, I've contributed what useful info I have in this thread. Have fun, ya'll.

---------- Post added September 23rd, 2015 at 11:51 AM ----------

Before you take ANY cave class, learn, practice, get proficient at the "non-cave" skills -- buoyancy control, non-silting kicks, doubles use -- before starting the cave program. Even if you never take the cave class, becoming actually proficient at the "non-cave" skills will make the rest of your diving much more fun. Then, if/when you do take any cave class, you can spend the time on the cave specific skills and actually get your monies' worth.

Yes. This. Tech skills need to be squared away before any overhead training. That's not your cave instructor's job. It is his/her job to fail you until you can perform to an acceptable level to continue.

 

[karstdvr]

Kelly you're taking this way too far and not even listening. It's not an absolute and your correlation is weak at best. Actually, there's a thread going on over at CDF where many are experiencing quite the opposite. And need I remind you about the Whale Bone? I'm sure that was a sloppy Intro diver. Right?

Anyway, I've contributed what useful info I have in this thread. Have fun, ya'll.

---------- Post added September 23rd, 2015 at 11:51 AM ----------



.

You may be right, then I apologize if I am not getting what you are saying. If we are saying that as we progress that we will be introduced new skills, and you should be solid with the previous skills, then I understand. If it is being suggested that if this is at a cavern/ intro class and someone doing key skills at a "poor" level is okay since this is an introductory course, not sure if I would concur. As I said my apologies if I misunderstand. Is the former done, yes, more than we want to talk about. This I have a problem with because we are allowing people into the overhead without complete survival skills. I am of the opinion that in open water 101, skills to satisfactory is okay, in a cave class, more likely well above average. Thanks

 

[MikeT73]

You may be right, then I apologize if I am not getting what you are saying. If we are saying that as we progress that we will be introduced new skills, and you should be solid with the previous skills, then I understand. If it is being suggested that if this is at a cavern/ intro class and someone doing key skills at a "poor" level is okay since this is an introductory course, not sure if I would concur. As I said my apologies if I misunderstand. Is the former done, yes, more than we want to talk about. This I have a problem with because we are allowing people into the overhead without complete survival skills. I am of the opinion that in open water 101, skills to satisfactory is okay, in a cave class, more likely well above average. Thanks

No worries man, and yes that's exactly what I meant. I was referring mostly to buoyancy, which should be at an advanced level prior to starting Cavern. Even a pretty well squared away diver will still have to adapt once he hits the overhead. Different environment than OW and takes practice to get it right, which is why I cringe at the zero to hero mindset. Survival skills is another ball of wax. That sh*t needs to be nearly perfect before doing any progression past Cavern. That should be non-negotiable.

 

[ucfdiver]

Hmmm...explains why the caves in the front half are getting beat up. Sounds like lower levels are allowed sloppy performance and this is acceptable. But, I do know many cave instructors who don't subscribe to this.

Of course sloppy performance is allowed at lower levels. A cavern class is TWO DAYS and is supposedly teaching kicks and proper buoyancy as well as overhead skills, and more lecture material than any other overhead course.For reference, GUE Fundies is 4-5 days and only covers buoyancy, trim, awareness, etc-- just basic skills. If progressing through the cave agency courses, you could be intro to cave certified and halfway through apprentice with equal number of days of instruction.I took fundies after I was full cave with abe davis and so did my buddy for the course. We each agreed that the expectations for fundies, a prereq for cave training, was more difficult than either of us encountered in our cave training.

 

[Superlyte27]

I'm not teaching buoyancy, trim or kicks in Cavern. I do that in Open Water class. If you come to me lacking those primary skills, there's no way I can get you ready for Cavern diving in the three days I plan for Cavern class.

 

[uncfnp]

The amount of chest beating in the later half of this thread is almost deafening. I know I am going to regret this.

Assisting a student to improve buoyancy, propulsion and trim is not the same as teaching it from the beginning. As DevonDiver recently said in another thread, paraphrasing, no diver is perfect, we all have something to learn, including improving buoyancy and trim.

Superlyte27 from your website Cavern Diver - Underwater Adventures Ultimate Cave Diving

Cavern Diver

"You will be run through tasks that test your buoyancy, trim and awareness. We'll teach you propulsion techniques that might be new or unfamiliar."

NSS-CDS, NACD, TDI, PSAI all mention either buoyancy, trim, propulsion or "swimming skills" in their course content for Cavern. And these are just the course outlines/descriptions I looked at.

NSS-CDS specifically mentions that ...

"The cavern diver course is setup to meet two different ends. The first is as a stand alone course for people who want to take a peek inside the caverns in a safe manner.The second is as the starting point for people who want to continue on to becoming certified as cave divers.

The cavern diver course provides the framework for all cavern and cave diving."

As I said, I am not an instructor. Just a beginner cave diver with a lot to learn. The last few posts are exactly why I asked the op his intention in taking the course early in the thread.

Why do I pursue this? Because we on SB often recommend Cavern as a next step recreational course to relatively newish divers that are interested in improving and progressing in diving, but not necessarily progressing to cave. Much as stuartv's inquiry. If cave instructors feel that this is not appropriate, even though it seems to be supported by numerous cave agencies, this needs to be made clearer to the OP and any others that are considering Cavern to improve their fundamental dive skills and awareness.