Cavern dive instructor recommendations

[boulderjohn]

Apart from the SPG issues we talked about, there are scooter prop marks on the floor, hand and find marks, fist marks, stage tank marks, ceiling breakoff due to floaty stages. Basically the whole range one could imagine, including full body imprints in the clay.

Some of it may be more or less unavoidable at times, but the sheer range of damage suggests that some people are not very concerned about the state they leave the caves in.

I was diving yesterday in the Devil's system in Ginnie Springs, and I am thinking of all the similar discussions about the same problems that have occurred in relation to that cave. There was a raging argument about the causes there back when I was first taking my cave training. People were blaming instructors for the most part. There was talk about one particular passage, and my instructor said he would never take students into that passage, and he did not know any other instructor who would.

I think discussions like this illustrate a human trait that makes us look for someone to blame while at the same time assuming that no one we know or trust could ever share that blame. Last winter I was exiting a cave in Mexico and happened to shine my light on an area not far off the line where I saw that someone had carved these letters in beautiful block print in the clay: G U E. I was talking about it later with a friend who was very much a GUE devotee, and that person insisted that it could not possibly have been done by someone associated with GUE--it must have been done by someone who was tying to embarrass GUE. Well, maybe it was, but I also think that as much as GUE stresses cave conservation (and they do), it is indeed possible that one of their graduates may have been responsible for that particular defacing of a cave.

On another cave dive in Mexico a couple of years ago, I was diving with a guide with a stellar reputation and impeccable skills. Despite all of that, this person took out a group of small stalactites in the ceiling in one location. That guide was absolutely mortified, as you should expect. It happens.

Summary: I would advise all to avoid looking for someone to blame for things like this, because you are likely to place that blame based upon your own preferences more than reality, and that reality may be that things like this can happen with just about anyone at some time, and when it does, the evidence stays for a very, very long time.

 

[karstdvr]

I'm pretty tired of the Edd vs Rob fracas as well. It's silting out discussions and posting anything that differs from how they do it results in an accusation of being some sort of "dig" against them. I don't hear this from Edd and Rob, only their fans, so let's stop beating that horse.

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Well said,but only too bad that taking a few to the proverbial wood shed wouldn't make a difference. On CDF when a thread went completely off tangent, and those posts were removed then the digs stopped. Posts removed, and forum time out seem extreme,but will have the effect wanted. As I alluded to earlier this stuff has gone on since the dawn of cave diving. We can't see how juvenile we act, when we were 4 years old, "my dad is better than your dad" is cute, as an adult, "my instructor is better than your instructor", sounds childish.

 

[The Chairman]

Again, there are things I see in several of my isntructor's that I no longer agree with. I learn from them and make my own decisions from there.

Good thoughts! Let's talk about ideas, concepts and protocols, leaving the deprecatory crap out of it. Let's stay away from acting like a bunch of politicians.

 

[nakatomi]

Good thoughts! Let's talk about ideas, concepts and protocols, leaving the deprecatory crap out of it. Let's stay away from acting like a bunch of politicians.

I like that approach!

In the "old days" of backmount doubles, we were taught to streamline our equipment. It had to be streamlined to reduce drag, for maximum efficiency in situations of high flow/current and to not get caught in wrecks and caves (especially in lines).
It was also a matter of style, to show how dedicated we were to having all the gear seated in the right spot and not dangling about.
Back when the "s-word" was still commonly used, my buddies and I joked that we wouldn't want to look like that Dutch non-DIR diver called "Hans van Stroken"...

The same should be true in todays world of sidemount, especially in cavern and cave diving. Streamlining should be a high priority to reduce the risk of entanglement and to reduce possible damage to the cave.
Don't be the sidemount version of "Hans van Stroken" and plow through the clay with your angled SPG's...

Without going back through the entire thread, I think where the discussion got off track was when it came to conservation/cave damage and the impact new cave instructors make.
So I do agree with what Jim posted, conservation should once again be the number one priority over what else there may be.

 

[kensuf]

When I started diving in SM like that back in 2012, I had my tanks set up in the same fashion - because a very respected instructor told me it was the only right way to do it and I trusted him.

Bill Gavin once said 'Any time anyone says, “there is only one right way to do this” your BS meter should be pegged.'

This is the problem of blindly following without understanding. Critical thinking skills are lacking.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2015 at 06:32 PM ----------

To me, especially in sidemounting, the instructor sets the basis,but as your cave diving evolves, one should know how to tweak your gear to accommodate a passage. If I dove the configuration I was first taught,it would not work well at some of the places I go to, simply I made adjustments. So go back to what I said,I tend not to look at the instructor,but the diver,because if they look at their configuration as a rigid unchangeable package, and they are damaging the cave,then they have some serious self reflection.

Kelly, you were taught cave diving back in the old school days. Now it's wham, bam, thank you ma'am. No critical thinking skills necessary, just write a check and do your dives and you're good to go.

 

[nakatomi]

This is the problem of blindly following without understanding. Critical thinking skills are lacking.

Well, I agree and was probably very guilty of not having been critical enough at the time and listening to the wrong advice.

Which, thinking about it, is another reason to make a wise choice when searching for a cavern/cave instructor.

 

[tbone1004]

I'll bite on the SPG discussion.

So as I see it there are essentially two ways to dive sidemount with your tanks inline to your body. First stage facing down with the SPG's lollipopped, or first stages up with the SPG's down. With the first one, "down" is a loose term. Mine are actually at about a 45* angle with the valves cocked a little bit. I have longer loops that hook onto the inside valve post and roll the tank up into me, so with that the SPG's are actually angle up and into my armpit. Makes a very snug feel that I like, but yes I do agree the SMS makes it worse by having the butt of the tank lifted up when it's full. I don't like the design, so I don't use it..... Biggest issue with this is when people use the brass/glass SPG's instead of the little ones, then compound it by using braided hoses, then they just droop so bad you're going to dig into the ground no matter what you do. I've also seen people with first stages down and spg's down, which is just asking for trouble, especially with the heavy gauges.
The second one is more streamlined, and was the first setup I tried, but I never really liked having to reach down and back to see my gauges, was a colossal PITA in a cave to try to shine light on one of the spg's no bueno.

 

[uncfnp]

I've seen the pic posted as an example of the "bad" version of the SPG down though I admit that I have trouble seeing it in that pic. I looked back at some video of my Intro class and it doesn't look too low to me. It drops maybe 2 inches from horizontal. In fact the clipped second stage seems to hang lower than the "lollipop" SPG. And the highest point seems to be the canister light, if you don't count the fins, never the tank. I admit I am not sure I see the problem.

Can someone post a pic of their preferred SPG placement? To the posters that have found better options, what have you done differently?

---------- Post added September 27th, 2015 at 09:15 PM ----------

It seems to me that when you choose an instructor you are expecting him or her to teach you what they know best. In this case sidemount cave. And of course he or she is going to teach it in whatever way they think best. That is what you chose him for. If he says "this is the best way" hopefully it will be followed with a comparison of the alternatives and the rationale why his method is best.

It is the students responsibility to advance beyond the instructor. To analytically process the information, adapt and discard as the diver evolves from student to expert. Hopefully no diver is completely static in their diving but that each and every dive is a learning experience.

 

[The Chairman]

So as I see it there are essentially two ways to dive sidemount with your tanks inline to your body. First stage facing down with the SPG's lollipopped, or first stages up with the SPG's down.

There are at least two more ways. SPGs going back along the tank or (like me) having them replaced by wireless AI transmitters.

 

[nakatomi]

I've seen the pic posted as an example of the "bad" version of the SPG down though I admit that I have trouble seeing it in that pic.

Here's a picture where you can probably see it better.
Also note that once the tanks get empty and rise in the back, the effect gets more pronounced.

In fact the clipped second stage seems to hang lower than the "lollipop" SPG.

I can see that, which is why I automatically either switch to that regulator in low passage or use one hand to hold it up temporarily.

And the highest point seems to be the canister light, if you don't count the fins, never the tank. I admit I am not sure I see the problem.

Well that's another aspect of teaching that I don't really agree with. The back is a very flexible part of our body, great to wiggle through restrictions. Not so much with a huge light canister across the back.

Can someone post a pic of their preferred SPG placement? To the posters that have found better options, what have you done differently?

Not one of the greatest pictures but the SPG's are sitting more or less in a good position with the first stages angled upwards.

It is the students responsibility to advance beyond the instructor. To analytically process the information, adapt and discard as the diver evolves from student to expert. Hopefully no diver is completely static in their diving but that each and every dive is a learning experience.

Sure, but the instructor is a student and diver himself. And he should be expected to advance and evolve over time too.

There are at least two more ways. SPGs going back along the tank or (like me) having them replaced by wireless AI transmitters.

Having the SPG's point backwards does not help much. While they won't dig as they would pointing forward, they are just angled 90 degrees to the back. As a result they are just as low as pointing forward and will make contact with the floor too.