Cavern dive instructor recommendations
- Thread starter FloridaMan1974
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that's why my tanks never point straight up or down
Neither of them are good for what we want. If they are up, then the hose has to be bent inwards and that kicks the butt of the tanks too far away from the diver and you look like a snowplow through the water. If they are down, then they drag, but you still pull them in towards you and it's just ugly. Assuming the turret is parallel to the valve, if the tanks are rotated so the valves are at 45* angles instead of flat, then the SPG's down will angle forward and into your chest. Yes they will likely hit first when you scrape your belly. If they are up and in the same position, they lay flat into your chest, no problem. With first stages down, you can mitigate the scraping problem by slightly cocking the valves so now the SPG goes up and into your chest. Works pretty well actually.
Similar to what Brian used to do per this video. I don't like a lot of the specific hose routing and unfortunately my Poseidons don't have bottom ports or turrets, but this is similar to what my regs look like. First stages "down" but rotated back into me to keep the SPG's up. I truly think this is the best of the evils for how to route this stuff.
[video=youtube;6n5RMSLdwI8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n5RMSLdwI8&list=WL&index=1[/video]
nakatomi
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That is absolutely not going to happen. The HP hose is flexible and even if and when the SPG makes light contact with the chest area, it will have zero leverage to manipulate the tank. Also the weight of the SPG will make the hose hang slightly, leveling it out again.
Other than that you have a point in that there probably other valid approaches to route the SPG's that will work nicely. I'm just saying that having the SPG's pointed down just messes up the caves.
Look at this example here of a diver using that approach. The quality is not the best but I'm sure you can see the issues with the SPG's:
And once again a picture with the first stages pointing up and the SPG's angled level/up. Please note that the butt of the tanks are not "kicked too for away from the diver":
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but they are kicked out in the second picture.... The first picture has them straight down, which I don't like and the bottles are much farther forward than they are in the second picture. If you took the first picture, but moved the tanks down about 4" and shortened the loops, the HP ports would be inline with your shoulder joint instead of the front of your chest and it helps. Your point is valid if you have the bottles pushed up that far with loose bungees, but if you pull them farther back the problem goes away.
I run my bottles much farther down my body with the first stages much higher than either of the pictures so my HP hoses actually come right up thru my armpit. I have a lot more length to play with those and with HP120's they still don't hit my knees.
I run my bottles much farther down my body with the first stages much higher than either of the pictures so my HP hoses actually come right up thru my armpit. I have a lot more length to play with those and with HP120's they still don't hit my knees.
nakatomi
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Well whatever you are seeing has a different reason. On that dive I used neck bungees, not loops, and the tanks were rolling to the sides.
That has nothing to do with the SPG's.
Here is another picture of properly trimmed 85s, you can see exactly how the SPG's sit. With a Nomad too, I'm sure you can relate to that much better
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I'm actually stupid happy with my old nomad right now. Removed the butt plate and am using counterlung drop rings from DSS for lower attachment points. Lengthened my loops to grab on the inside of the valve handles and it rolls my tanks up and into my body which makes it much more stable imho. What you are showing in that pic is basically identical to mine, except my valve knobs are down currently due to limited shoulder flexibility on my left. If you have the first stages down, but with valves in that orientation, and the cocked 1st stages, the SPG's should come up and into your body with no issues. Advantage to 1st stages up, is it makes the bungees a helluva lot easier to get onto the tanks. Unfortunately the poseidon first stages don't have a turret, so I haven't quite figured out how to make that work yet
Randy g
Contributor
TBone you are a wealth of information but I think you need one of these.
I see they/you have it trimmed down now. Interesting read for sure.
I see they/you have it trimmed down now. Interesting read for sure.
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FloridaMan1974
Contributor
Man, what an experience.
I recall reading a quote somewhere that read, "Tech diving is to regular scuba, what scuba is to snorkeling."
After my sidemount,cavern, & intro class I understand what they mean.
The first day was focused on getting us (myself and one other student) familiar to and comfortable with the sidemount rig. The other student was a DM had owned his own harness and was previously PADI certified for SM, but was retaking the course for overhead. He later remarked to me that the PADI SM course was a joke compared to the one we took.
At first it was a little awkward getting geared up and a little uncomfortable having to wrap two hoses around your neck, but any perceived discomfort quickly faded and after my third dive in that rig I felt perfectly comfortable.
Days 1+2 were spent in the cavern zone in jackson blue, getting accustomed to movement in an overhead environment, basic malfunction handling (feathering, air share, mask swap, etc), and line running. Time out of the water was spent adjusting tank attachment( lots of that to get perfect trim) and watching footage of us in the cavern to see what we did correctly and incorrectly. Having a GoPro to see what you do under water is such an amazing learning tool.
Day 3 is where I feel the training stepped up a notch, with the introduction of... NO VISIBILITY DRILLS. Man were they interesting. They initially consisted of Edd just asking us to close our eyes, but then advanced to the blackout mask.
On our first drill, mine and my buddy's, we both "died". Following the gold line back we made it to our primary tie off, but mistakenly followed the gold line to its tie off point rather than switching to the primary reel. While in the water, it felt like the most complicated task in the world, but watching the GoPro footage afterwards showed how we looked like a couple of bumbling idiots, literally feeling around for the line while it's a few inches away from us.
When we did our debrief that day I remember Edd said, "well, if that was real you'd both be dead. At least it would be an easy body recovery. Everyone would be saying man, they almost made it out! Actually, the flow probably would've pushed your body out and you would be floating face down right over there." Quite the sobering image. After that, neither of us made that mistake again.
Day 4 was similar to Day 3, more drills, but we did better than the previous day.
Day 5 began the real cave diving. I am incredibly glad I decided to take cave; it's such a tease to see a little further into the cave but not being able to go back. Cave I allowed me to quench that thirst. Day 5 also brought a new student, an OW dive instructor, who was repeating the cave I course- he had a poor experience with a prior instructor.
Our two dives on day 5 had us go back about 700' feet and man was it amazing, such a surreal world and unbelievable experience. Edd would allow us to swim in unimpeded with drills, so we could enjoy it a bit, then on our turn he would hit us with all sorts of drills. Lost buddy, lost line, out of air, 0 viz, 0 viz air share.
Day 6 took us to two new dive sites, twin and hole in the wall. Caves with less flow than Jackson, but more potential for silt with narrower restrictions and finer silt on the bottom. Day 6 was a repeat of day 5 with the addition of a 3 man no viz touch contact drill, which went reasonably well all things considered. Day 6 also really allowed me to appreciate the S/M configuration as I could see where having a tank on your back would have definitely made things more difficult.
Overall I had a great time and have gained an immense appreciation and respect for cave diving.
I felt Edd was a great instructor, not afraid to let you know when you ****ed up, but also more than capable of helping you fix/hone the issue and commending you when you did. He's also quite the entertaining guy, very knowledgeable about the sport and full of insightful anecdotes into cave diving.
I'll definitely be getting my apprentice/full, maybe with Edd or maybe with someone else (just to get a different perspective).
In the future I will be definitely exploring more caves, but with a careful approach. After being in the caves I can easily see how quickly something can go wrong and how life-threatening it is when it does.
Thank you everyone who posted in this thread, your advice allowed me to have a fantastic experience and opened up a door into a sport that I had never before even considered.
quick edit: To those who are considering taking cavern/cave, the things I wished I worked on more are perfecting the frog kick, back kick, helicopter turn. The flutter kick now feels unnatural to me. And to really have your buoyancy dialed in, I was fine with mine, but my buddies had a few issues with theirs.
Happy & Safe Diving!
I recall reading a quote somewhere that read, "Tech diving is to regular scuba, what scuba is to snorkeling."
After my sidemount,cavern, & intro class I understand what they mean.
The first day was focused on getting us (myself and one other student) familiar to and comfortable with the sidemount rig. The other student was a DM had owned his own harness and was previously PADI certified for SM, but was retaking the course for overhead. He later remarked to me that the PADI SM course was a joke compared to the one we took.
At first it was a little awkward getting geared up and a little uncomfortable having to wrap two hoses around your neck, but any perceived discomfort quickly faded and after my third dive in that rig I felt perfectly comfortable.
Days 1+2 were spent in the cavern zone in jackson blue, getting accustomed to movement in an overhead environment, basic malfunction handling (feathering, air share, mask swap, etc), and line running. Time out of the water was spent adjusting tank attachment( lots of that to get perfect trim) and watching footage of us in the cavern to see what we did correctly and incorrectly. Having a GoPro to see what you do under water is such an amazing learning tool.
Day 3 is where I feel the training stepped up a notch, with the introduction of... NO VISIBILITY DRILLS. Man were they interesting. They initially consisted of Edd just asking us to close our eyes, but then advanced to the blackout mask.
On our first drill, mine and my buddy's, we both "died". Following the gold line back we made it to our primary tie off, but mistakenly followed the gold line to its tie off point rather than switching to the primary reel. While in the water, it felt like the most complicated task in the world, but watching the GoPro footage afterwards showed how we looked like a couple of bumbling idiots, literally feeling around for the line while it's a few inches away from us.
When we did our debrief that day I remember Edd said, "well, if that was real you'd both be dead. At least it would be an easy body recovery. Everyone would be saying man, they almost made it out! Actually, the flow probably would've pushed your body out and you would be floating face down right over there." Quite the sobering image. After that, neither of us made that mistake again.
Day 4 was similar to Day 3, more drills, but we did better than the previous day.
Day 5 began the real cave diving. I am incredibly glad I decided to take cave; it's such a tease to see a little further into the cave but not being able to go back. Cave I allowed me to quench that thirst. Day 5 also brought a new student, an OW dive instructor, who was repeating the cave I course- he had a poor experience with a prior instructor.
Our two dives on day 5 had us go back about 700' feet and man was it amazing, such a surreal world and unbelievable experience. Edd would allow us to swim in unimpeded with drills, so we could enjoy it a bit, then on our turn he would hit us with all sorts of drills. Lost buddy, lost line, out of air, 0 viz, 0 viz air share.
Day 6 took us to two new dive sites, twin and hole in the wall. Caves with less flow than Jackson, but more potential for silt with narrower restrictions and finer silt on the bottom. Day 6 was a repeat of day 5 with the addition of a 3 man no viz touch contact drill, which went reasonably well all things considered. Day 6 also really allowed me to appreciate the S/M configuration as I could see where having a tank on your back would have definitely made things more difficult.
Overall I had a great time and have gained an immense appreciation and respect for cave diving.
I felt Edd was a great instructor, not afraid to let you know when you ****ed up, but also more than capable of helping you fix/hone the issue and commending you when you did. He's also quite the entertaining guy, very knowledgeable about the sport and full of insightful anecdotes into cave diving.
I'll definitely be getting my apprentice/full, maybe with Edd or maybe with someone else (just to get a different perspective).
In the future I will be definitely exploring more caves, but with a careful approach. After being in the caves I can easily see how quickly something can go wrong and how life-threatening it is when it does.
Thank you everyone who posted in this thread, your advice allowed me to have a fantastic experience and opened up a door into a sport that I had never before even considered.
quick edit: To those who are considering taking cavern/cave, the things I wished I worked on more are perfecting the frog kick, back kick, helicopter turn. The flutter kick now feels unnatural to me. And to really have your buoyancy dialed in, I was fine with mine, but my buddies had a few issues with theirs.
Happy & Safe Diving!
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