BP/W is just a tool

[TSandM]

I've never noticed any buoyancy change with the shorts. And they work very well.

 

[divesergeant]

Thanks TSandM,

I just checked them out. A hundred smackers for a pair of shorts. OUCH! Are they really that good?

I like the idea, but for a hundred bucks I can buy several pair of really kick-butt board shorts.

Whaddya think? Are they must-haves?
DS

 

[Scott L]

Thanks TSandM,

I just checked them out. A hundred smackers for a pair of shorts. OUCH! Are they really that good?

I like the idea, but for a hundred bucks I can buy several pair of really kick-butt board shorts.

Whaddya think? Are they must-haves?
DS

Actual pockets run in the $70-$90 range each, so a hundred smackers is not too bad...

 

[knowone]

Buy the long leg version for stepping out in X shorts is a really big step in the vicious circle back to the bouyancy vest and another pair for your head for redundancy and to help oblivion to whispering and giggling.

 

[Crush]

Thanks TSandM,

I just checked them out. A hundred smackers for a pair of shorts. OUCH! Are they really that good?

I like the idea, but for a hundred bucks I can buy several pair of really kick-butt board shorts.

Whaddya think? Are they must-haves?
DS

Scuba is terribly expensive

My drysuit spoiled me for cargo pockets. I bought the xshorts for wetsuit diving and love them. Very well made. Worth $100 to me.

 

[BB1]

Slightly cheaper on the pocket (pardon the pun!)

Fleabay

Thanks TSandM,

I just checked them out. A hundred smackers for a pair of shorts. OUCH! Are they really that good?

I like the idea, but for a hundred bucks I can buy several pair of really kick-butt board shorts.

Whaddya think? Are they must-haves?
DS

 

[boulderjohn]

I am not a user of X-shorts, but I have seen them used and see no problem with them. I just want to point out that if you are comparing the cost of X-shorts to glue on pockets, remember that the X-shorts can be worn over different wet suits if you use different thickness for different purposes. They can be reused with a new suit when the old one goes south.

 

[divesergeant]

Damn. Guess I might have to take the plunge. My LDS is getting some in soon and I'll check them out. I'd prefer to buy local so I can look them over before plunking down my hard-earned loot.

Thanks for the input.
DS

 

[danvolker]

Here's what I see:

1. Newbies asking for advices.
2. Posters pontificate and INSIST that BPW & long hose/short hose is the ONLY way to go.
3. fnfalman plays devil's advocate.
4. Pontificators throw tantrums and begin ad hominem attacks.
5. fnfalman replied in kind.
6. Pontificators whine about being misunderstood.
7. Repeat as needed.

Fnfalman,
Slightly different perspective you might consider as significant to your "protective" mindset
$$$$$$The vast majority of ads and articles in the print based major dive magazines (rags new divers would read) push vest style bcd or mass marketed rear inflation with few of the benefits of bp/wing systems ...
$$$$$ The vast majority of dive stores throughout the US sell mass market bc's and typically attempt to direct all new divers to the traditional bc (of which they have a huge inventory of)....a common theme seems to be "Why sell one bp/wing to a new diver, when you COULD sell them 3 or 4 bc's over several years, and THEN tell the diver they may be ready for a bp/wing....
$$$$$$$ DEMA could be expected to push the entire dive industry toward selling 4 or 5 items of gear over several years, rather than one piece of gear that could last for the diver's life....the pervasive movement from DEMA is MAXIMIZE SALES, IGNORE FUNCTION.....some years the big push was going from orange to yellow gear, then from yellow to black...many years it was how much bigger a bc was, and how much bigger the pockets were, how many more things could be clipped on and carried (opposite to ideas of streamlining).

I could go on ad nauseum with these examples, but the issue here to me, and many to you, could be the NEED for posters on SB to attempt to counter dive industry propaganda......you must know that the people you are posting to on SB have been exposed to massive amounts of ad material and sales pushes that make the traditional BC appear to be their best choice.....I am thinking we need to give them the non-advertising based side of the story, the one that makes function king, not color. It is not really about whether you can be a great diver with a scuba pro stab jacket--obviously you can.....it is more about helping new divers or other looking for a new BC, to get the side of the story that DEMA does not want anyone to think about....

Regards,
DanV

 

[Lobzilla]

Fnfalman,
Slightly different perspective you might consider as significant to your "protective" mindset
$$$$$$The vast majority of ads and articles in the print based major dive magazines (rags new divers would read) push vest style bcd or mass marketed rear inflation with few of the benefits of bp/wing systems ...
$$$$$ The vast majority of dive stores throughout the US sell mass market bc's and typically attempt to direct all new divers to the traditional bc (of which they have a huge inventory of)....a common theme seems to be "Why sell one bp/wing to a new diver, when you COULD sell them 3 or 4 bc's over several years, and THEN tell the diver they may be ready for a bp/wing....
$$$$$$$ DEMA could be expected to push the entire dive industry toward selling 4 or 5 items of gear over several years, rather than one piece of gear that could last for the diver's life....the pervasive movement from DEMA is MAXIMIZE SALES, IGNORE FUNCTION.....some years the big push was going from orange to yellow gear, then from yellow to black...many years it was how much bigger a bc was, and how much bigger the pockets were, how many more things could be clipped on and carried (opposite to ideas of streamlining).

I could go on ad nauseum with these examples, but the issue here to me, and many to you, could be the NEED for posters on SB to attempt to counter dive industry propaganda......you must know that the people you are posting to on SB have been exposed to massive amounts of ad material and sales pushes that make the traditional BC appear to be their best choice.....I am thinking we need to give them the non-advertising based side of the story, the one that makes function king, not color. It is not really about whether you can be a great diver with a scuba pro stab jacket--obviously you can.....it is more about helping new divers or other looking for a new BC, to get the side of the story that DEMA does not want anyone to think about....

Regards,
DanV

Hi DanV

I do not think that the jacket BC conspiracy is that big.

One BP/W is not going to get you through your career. You will buy another plate made from a different material, more wings, tank adapters, double bands, etc. Before you know it you have 2-3 complete BP/W sitting in your gear room because your fingertips are getting thin from taking all the rings and buckles off and then putting everything back to the right place.

Individually, a BP/W is not exactly cheap either. Just a good wing costs as much as the whole jacket BC.

My explanation for the prevalence of jacket BCs in the recreational realm is that few stock sizes fit all - more or less. Yes, you can customize a BP/W exactly to the individual but does the recreational diver or recreational instructor really have the skills and time for this?

I have an advanced engineering degree and ask a lot of people a lot of question. However, I will guarantee you that when I show up with my BP/W in the Fundies, there will be many, many things wrong with the setup. I am seriously contemplating to bring the whole caboodle in bits and pieces, pretending I just bought it, to save myself the embarrassment. The BP/W is an expert tool that either needs an experienced user or expert advice.

My first encounter with BP/W was on a demo day of the top-end BP/W manufacturer and you should have seen how the guy who sells these things day in and out rigged me up. Tank crooked, nose-heavy, and 20 lbs overweight. Unless you have a GUE/UTD or serious tech instructor in every OW class you are going to have more grief with the BP/W than you have benefits.

While I am 'sold' on the BP/W, I do not see this as a practical entry level tool unless you significantly increase the quality of instruction and training in an OW class. Just picture the average guy, in the average 3rd pool session, doing the don/doff routine with a single-piece strap BP/W underwater or, even more entertaining, on the surface. No way, Jose.

When I learned to shape metal into something useful they handed me a file and not a CNC mill. Before that it was a tricycle, then a bicyle, then a unicyle. Later in aviation, a primary trainer before an advanced trainer. A floating surfboard before a sinker, a trainer surf-kite on the beach before one that can lift you 15 feet into the air. I think you get the point. There is nothing wrong with using tools that match your experience level. Some of those you will pass on and other are still useful even as your skill level and equipment advances. The file and the bicyle are life-long keepers for me. I even went back to the 'dark side' and bought my own lowly, rediculous, beginner, experts thumbing their noses at, trainer-kite for kite-skating in the winter. The colors-du-jour were red, orange, and green. Maybe I got suckered badly.

In hindsight, I do not regret for one second having bought a used Scubapro Classic BC on fleabay. I am diving the hell out of this thing while I am waiting for my Oxycheq Mach V wing, and waiting, and waiting... At the price I paid for the poodle jacket (half the price of a SS plate - just the plate), I am going to keep it around for all future times when (not if) the BP/W is in a state of uselessness due to missing parts or missing knowledge/advice.

The beauty of the jacket BC is that it is simple and nearly fool-proof. Not the best in terms of efficiency, versatility, team standardisation etc. but ready to get you diving without much fuss and muss. You do not need manipulation of an evil industry to figure that out.