Are dive computers making bad divers?

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Tables are about useless. They are great for calculating the rare Square Dive profile but that is about it.
No, they're not useless. There's a method for guesstimating a multilevel dive as well. It's documented in literature, but no-one are advertising it due to liability issues. I've used it for initial planning and since it gives OK-ish results, it can be used to get an idea of my total time given two different depth levels. Underwater I of course follow my computer, but I've had some use of that method before I'd dived so much that my typical profiles became stored in the best computer I have: my brain.

Yes, I know my PDC has a planning mode. However, it's quite a bit more awkward to press a button, wait, press a button, wait, read, press a button, wait,... than to just pull out the table and read it. The latter takes about 15 seconds.
 
Uhhh.... because if you learn the tables, you can potentially recognize a bad result from a computer? Without learning any decompression theory?

If you know the tables even modestly well, and you've been diving on air for 40 minutes at 60 feet and your computer says you have 50 more minutes of NDL, you would have a good shot at realizing that something is wrong with your computer. Without knowing ANYTHING about deco theory.

If you learn your computer, or any program that's available or any simulator u learn the SAME thing that the tables have

Enter simulator enter depth enter time...

You can learn them if you want... You don't need a table... It's archaic to think that that information exists in table alone.


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Yes, I know my PDC has a planning mode. However, it's quite a bit more awkward to press a button, wait, press a button, wait, read, press a button, wait,... than to just pull out the table and read it. The latter takes about 15 seconds.

My PDC does not have a button for "how long should I make my SI so I can breathe down another Al80 before lunch and one more after without getting NDL-limited"
 
I think it is incorrect to say that tables are a necessary tool to learn in diving or make bad divers who are dependent on computers. What do they teach us:

1 - Plan what max depth will be reached before dive.
2 - Reset Max depth indicator.
3 - Set Watch bezel or timer.
4 - Maybe recalculate if planned depth exceeded (definitely) or not reached.
5 - Time surface interval.
6 - Plan next dive based on residual nitrogen penalty - Go to step 1.

What have I learned: I learned how to follow information through shaded tables without a real understanding of what the number mean. With a max depth indicator and a watch, I was more aware of my dive times and depths and was a little more diligent in pre-dive checks. With modern bottom timers - other than a little more intimate understanding of my expected dive profile - nothing as my pre-dive checks do not have to be more involved than computers with the exception of step 1. In the end, you have no understanding of why specific times are used, what residual nitrogen really means to you, what algorithm is being used etc. If you have an issue while on tables and exceed limits on your repetitive dive, reach into your pocket and find they floated away even though you had tethered them (happened to be probably 5 times), what are you going to do?? In the end, you are going to do the same thing someone with a failed computer does, end the dive, maybe do a looong safety stop.

By using tables, I have learned no basics with regards to decompression theory. I have only added complexity to my predive (I cannot tell you how often everyone on the boat forgot to time the BT, SI or have the max depth). In the end, there is no added benefit to the diver to have an understanding of tables vs computer.

Problems with divers too dependent on the computer - this is a misnomer. It is really a problem with divers not being able to properly analyze, think through and resolve issues - Think situational awareness. It is not a dependence that causes a diver to have a problem when a computer fails. It is a problem with instruction, training and retention that the diver does not automatically know what to do! Your computer fails - No backup = End dive, Backup = maybe continue dive. When a second computer is beneficial, bring it. Multi day diving, highly desirable repetitive diving etc are dives a 2nd computer is worth it. When in doubt, blow the dive.

It would be far more beneficial to give even a rudimentary understanding of decompression theory to a recreational diver than teach an outdated, rarely used, prone to error method of maintaining NDL.

There are many tools we use now that we did not have 'back in the day'. Using computers with an understanding of their capabilities, failure modes and limits are what is needed.
 
I The tables are the foundation.

No.

The physics behind on loading and offloading nitrogen are part of the foundation. The other part is the idea of mathematical models with several compartments. There are parameters for each compartment. These parameters are then fit to the experimental results for a large population of which I am no longer a member. (Young healthy males). There are more parameters and thresholds. Some set from data and some set just to be safe. Then one runs the model and generates a table.

Tables are one way to look at the output of the model. A PDC is another way to look at the output of the model. Paper book vs Kindel.

I dive with two computers. I carry tables with me on the boat but I have had to modify them to include nitrox 30% and MODs at 1.2 and 1.3 since I like to keep my PO2 down and 30% is my preferred mix. Tables used just to make sure the days dive plan makes sense.

I am very good with numbers. However, if things are going south, I would much rather rely on my two computers then try to do some calculations or memorized tables in my head or even look at written tables. I have better things to do like try to find the anchor, help my buddy, etc. Many studies have shown that wet ware can let you down. That is why critical checklists should be written down rather than memorized ( like for pilots).
 
The only answer that can be given is the statement that you quoted. For any new diver full faith is put is a computer that you have no idea how it got the result. The results given have no way to be checked as to validity unless you have a sense of the tables. Ow students do not learn DECO so that part of your argument is moot. OW dives are non deco dives. Theory that you mentioned is useless. The only deco that an OW needs to know is that depth fills you and surface empties you of the bad stuff at a given rate. You dont need "THEORY" to be an OW diver. What you do need is reliable information to plan and execute a dive. That by your position is putting all reliability in a computer with its nonperfect sensors, construction and programming. On top of that your position says to instill this practice in the most vulnerable of divers. the newby's, the once a year divers that do 90% trust dives when renting gear. When you tell them that there is a 120-140 rule for ndl. It is not right to ask them to take it with blind faith. They need to know that when they do a 30 ft dive and teh ndl in not in the 120 rule range on a first dive, that it is ok, and that when doing a 100 ft repeditive dive a 40 min ndl is not ok. I don't question the reliability of a computer to the extent you are trying to make from this. The computer has too many advantages as to not use them. Like any tool, you use it as a more efficient method of an older version. Here are some examples that have already been used. Would you trust an ai computer that says you have 3400 in a al80 tank? Would you trust your computer if it said you have 40 minutes at 100 ft and you are diving air. would you trust your computer to determine ascent and decent rates? Would you trust your computer with anything unless you attempt to reconcile the data shown with something known. If i get a ai computer that says i have 3400, i am gong to ask what others have in their tank and get a manual gage to check the pressure. If my computer says it I have an unreasonable ndl I am going to question the set up and probably see it it is set up for nitrox. Ii check the rate indicator that it does say zero and not soemthing else. When i get to depth i compare the depth reading with my buddy. Hovering and decending while watching the rate scale proves to a great extent that the function is working. checking my depth with the buddy does the same, but when it comes to "is the ndl reasonable" I can compare ti to a LIKE computer or compere it to another standard. That other standard is the table. A new diver does not know about nitrox and EAD, a new diver has no clue to decompression, he has the most basic coke bottle explanation but not a working knowledge, nor does he need deco knowledge as an OW. The argument can be made that the tables could be wrong also but the odds of that is so remote compared to the computer spitting out bad data. Tables do vary from one organization to another because of assumptions built into the table. Tables are not always easy to use because of the data lay out. I will give you that the actual table's do not have to be understood just the basic mechanics of them is good for me. but understanding where the 120 rule came from, the depths the rule is accurate is another thing all together. with out seeing tables on data you can not understand it. To leave diving for a minute, which speed would you believe your car is doing??? the one on the dashboard or the one on the GPS. To a new driver "whats the difference" To an experienced or properly trained driver, you know tire size deviates the accuracy in the dashboard display. Your speedometer is just a tachometer that is programmed to convert shaft revolution's to speed given an assumed size tire circumference. I am not saying have an intimate knowledge in the tables , just enough to say my puter is not lying to me or telling the truth from bad given input. When it comes to nitrox how can you have anyone understand the benefits of nitrox without the basics of tables. Why is it that you can get longer bottom times or shorter SI's but not the max of both. Accepting that without the ability to prove the statement on table based information is trust me training. And as we all know training is no better than the instructor. what is EAD how does it work. Cant teach that without table information to support the training claim. computers with out table understanding is akin to diving with no spg and depending on the J valve or whistling regulator to tell you when your air is low. You may be too young to know about them but the same principle is being used to put tables out to pasture.



Why do you keep saying that...

Tables are not the foundation, they don't teach you anything about deco theories... They do just about the same thing that computers do (a little less actually)...

They tell you how long you canis correct??? stay down on a first dive... And how long you can stay down on a repeat dive after a certain surface interval...

As was mentioned by me and others in this thread that information can be sought from a number of places including a computer, dive simulator, dive planning tool etc.


It's all about in the teaching of decompression theory... you can teach the same theory, table or computer doesn't matter...

I believe when you were thought tables your instructor thought you some level of deco theory along with it so you assume that "teaching tables" = "teaching deco"...

That's just a misconception on your part... he illustrated the theory using tables... which you can easily do with a computer as well



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I In speaking you diagrammed sentences till you understood the relationship of sentence structure and you don't use them again. You say bob and I went to the store. because broken down it is bob went to the store and I went to the store,,,, the and combines two thoughts into one joint thought. and you don't say "me a a bob went to the store". because..... bob went to the store is good but me went to the store is just plain use of words. Yet how many talk like that ?

I think your analogy is apt, but not for the reason you think. The reason you give for "Me and Bob went to the store" being incorrect has nothing to do with learning to diagram sentences. Research has indicated that being able to diagram sentences makes a person able to diagram sentences, but not much more than that. What it teaches is soon forgotten and rarely used, as it was in this case.

With sentence diagramming (or other methods of teaching those formal rules of grammar), you would have come to your conclusion differently from the way you describe. You would have recognized that the combination of "me and Bob" is a phrase functioning as the subject of a clause. It could have been the main clause of compound sentence or a compound complex sentence, or it could have been a sentence in itself. You recognize its function is the subject of the clause by the fact that it is performing the action of the verb "went," with the remaining words forming an adverbial prepositional phrase modifying the verb and answering the question ""where." You would have recognized that while "Bob" is a proper noun, "me" is a pronoun, and pronouns must be in the proper case. Since the pronoun is part of a phrase functioning as the subject of a clause, then it needs to be in the nominative case rather than the objective case. Since "I" is the nominative case and "we" is the objective case, "Me and Bob" is incorrect.

You had instruction that taught you that, but it is not what you remember, and it is not the method you described using. You also had a teacher who taught you a very simple shortcut in lieu of that system: when you have a combination like Me and Bob, if you take them individually and listen to the result, you can tell if one is wrong. How can you tell? Well, by the fact that "Me went to the store" sounds wrong. You know this because your brain internalized that fact over years of listening to the way people speak. Linguists believe that children internalize 90% of the rules of grammar by age 5, long before they have had any formal instruction, although they could not put those rules into words. In fact, people learned to speak, read, and write English before the rules of grammar were invented. Shakespeare never had a single lesson in formal English grammar, because it had not been invented yet.

So that is one of the reasons that sentence diagramming is almost never taught these days. It is hard, in fact, to find a textbook that includes it. (I used to purchase such textbooks.) It teaches very little that you really need, and almost everyone forgets it.People need to use need some other way to decide what is correct.

I took my very first dive trip to Cozumel back in the last millenium, and I pulled out my newly-learned tables to track my dives. Everyone who saw me burst out laughing. The multi-level dives we were doing made the tables useless there. If you wanted to dive in Cozumel, you had to follow a DM by law, and even back then those DMs were using computers to track their multi-level dives. I had three choices. 1) I could just follow the DM and trust him to keep me safe. 2) I could hire a private DM to lead me on square profile dives. 3) I could get a computer.

That time that I pulled out my tables in Cozumel was the last time I ever saw any recreational diver use recreational dive tables anywhere in the world. They work for square profile dives, but like sentence diagramming, most people have forgotten how it is done and have chosen a different system for tracking and planning their dives.
 
stuartv - Exactly how would you know your times and depths? You have a computer failure...

If my computer is displaying time, and it somewhat matches own internal clock, I trust that. I.e. if it says EDT is 15 minutes and I think I've been down somewhere around 15 minutes, I would trust that.

If it wasn't earlier in this thread, it was another current thread where a poster reported that his computer's pressure sensor was off and was reporting his depth 3m different than actual. That's roughly 10 feet. If I'm on the bottom, I know pretty well what my depth is (because I paid attention to the pre-dive briefing), so I might notice that my current is reading the wrong depth, or I might not. IOW, the computer's depth reading could be seriously wrong and not obviously so.

I have also read old reports of dive computers that turned out to have buggy software that produced results that were bad and, again, not obviously so. I haven't heard about that happening recently, but as a professional software developer, my opinion is that it could happen any time, with any new computer or any software update of any existing computer.

One thing that has happened to me personally once is that I set my PDC for my FO2 (30%). 5 - 10 minutes later, I actually got in the water. What I didn't notice right away was that it just so happened that the exact 24 hour mark since I got out of the water the day before happened to occur between when I set the F02 and when I got in the water. My PDC reset to Air at the 24 hour mark. I don't normally even look at the FO2 setting when I'm in the water - at least, if I know I just set it. So, if I didn't have an idea of how much NDL I should have for that dive, I would not have checked my PDC, thought "that's odd, I should have more NDL than that" and caught the problem.

Having that idea of how much NDL I should have did not come from knowing deco theory and working out some number in my head. It came from knowing specific values for specific combos of FO2 and depth. I.e. it came from having some (sparsely populated) tables in my head. Whether those tables in my head were populated from looking at paper tables or by checking specific values in some software application (on a PDC or tablet or laptop or desktop) is irrelevant. Even if you check a computer, you're still just doing a lookup of a specific value. You're not using deco theory to get that value. The computer may be, but you are not. It's still tables to you. Start with a specific FO2 and depth and determine an NDL.

IOW, as I said before, I think knowing tables is helpful. I don't see a need for an OW diver to know deco theory.
 
The only answer that can be given is the statement that you quoted. For any new diver full faith is put is a computer that you have no idea how it got the result. The results given have no way to be checked as to validity unless you have a sense of the tables. Ow students do not learn DECO so that part of your argument is moot. OW dives are non deco dives. Theory that you mentioned is useless. The only deco that an OW needs to know is that depth fills you and surface empties you of the bad stuff at a given rate.

1. New divers learning tables put their faith in a dive master without doing any checks on their tables... I've seen this very often as I'm not in such a country where everybody has a computer and shops have multiple computers for rent... Do says ok we can do 60 for 40... And they role with that... They just make sure their depth doesn't go past 60 and they surface with the dm and go again... A bad diver with a table is a bad diver with a computer but safer at Least...

2. The fact that you say ow doesn't learn deco just goes to show that this argument is pointless... No deco dives simply mean you do not need to do mandatory decompression stops and you can surface directly but you are still experiencing on gasing and off gasing... Which you should learn the basics of in your ow course...



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I saw a perfect example of people not paying attention to their PDC (or thinking) some years ago. The group of about 10 divers did a first dive, square profile, to 42m with one DM and then after 1h of SI we jumped in at the second site with bottom at 24m but with a second DM that had sat out the first dive and who's PDC was zeroed in terms of N2 loading!
The DM went straight to the bottom and stayed there. After just a few minutes we started going into deco on our PDCs. Only three of us noticed this and started going shallower to stretch out the dive. The remainder of the group stayed at depth even though we made signals to them to look at their PDCs and come shallower every time they looked up and we got their attention. The DM was off in the front of the group oblivious to what was going on behind him.
To cut a long story short most of the group accumulated a significant deco obligation which wasn't paid off. The DM went white when I pointed out to him what had happened when he surfaced - he simply hadn't realized that the group had gone so deep on the first dive and had accumulated a significant N2 loading.
He just followed his (clean) PDC and didn't think.
To this day I don't know why we didn't end up with 7 people going for a chamber ride.

It is an interesting story, but I have to say it is slightly the opposite of my experience in similar situations. I have seen it a few times when due to bad planning or whatever other reasons, everyone in a group of tourists starts going into deco on the second (or third) dive of the day.

Usually what I have seen happen is (a) all the dive computer alarms start going off like car horns at a Mexican wedding so everyone is very aware of the situation, and (b) all the inexperienced holiday divers start freaking out like they are about to explode because they have all been trained to equate deco obligation with immediate death.
 
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