A different take on Master Scuba Diver

[Lorenzoid]

First, congratulations. Doing a lot of diving and having fun are the ultimate goals we all have, aren't they?

The received wisdom on SB is to do courses such as NAUI MSD and GUE Fundies. If I’d followed the advice I’d read on SB I would never have considered PADI MSD as it feels like the only route advocated is to push to be a highly trained amateur diving specialist.

My thinking is it need not be an either-or decision. You did a lot of varied diving and are, I suppose you consider yourself, now a "moderately trained generalist" as opposed to a "highly trained specialist." What I would like to add is that one of the goals of GUE Fundies is to make ALL kinds of diving more enjoyable. You can still be a generalist, but if you hone your fundamental skills, you may find yourself having more fun doing all those varied kinds of diving.

On fundies and similar courses - I think there are a range of reasons and motivations to become a diver but not everybody wants to take it that seriously and to become an excellent diver. I’ll put it out there - I don’t want to be an excellent diver.

I think there is a misconception that Fundies is for "serious" divers only. Plenty of people who have no interest in technical diving take Fundies with the goal of making their recreational diving more enjoyable by freeing up some of their mind's bandwidth from the mundane bits (my characterization--not GUE's) and letting them focus on whatever it is that's important to them, whether that be looking at pretty fish or whatever. In Fundies, they simply tell you that the goal is to improve. The do use the word "excellence" and I think it does them a disservice and turns some people off, just as the now-disused "doing it right" turned some people off.

 

[Outbound]

Nope...... Just general experience dealing with attorneys who will look at any possible "window of blame" or "money pocket" when trying to collect their 40%. If you are buddied up or possibly even near a diver who has a mishap, injury or worse....... and you had previously promoted or identified yourself as an instructor, DM, MSD, Rescue Diver, etc.......... then a blood sucking attorney will have no problem trying to establish that you may have had some implied responsibility to take action...

Also, if you promote or identify yourself as an instructor, DM, MSD, Rescue Diver, etc...... a blood sucking attorney will have no problem trying to establish that the injured party may have had a reasonable expectation to rely on you....

Somewhere out there is blood sucking attorney wearing a jacket with a PADI MSD patch on it just waiting for you...

 

[Manatee Diver]

So do ALL in-water classes, even Fish ID.

What does fish ID have in it that actually requires you to be in the water? I can conduct a fish ID class with a large selection of photos.

Trim for AL80s? BCD/bungee adjustment? If it is so easy why do so many beginning SM divers look so crappy in the water? If they take a class they quickly get set up right and gets lots of practice and feedback.

Class speeds that up, but a ton of people figure it out with video. Look at the sidemount forum we typically have someone at least once a week asking for suggestions to get trimmed out. I've personally retrimed out my rig after going dry using video.

 

[scubadada]

...Last but not least......when diving with others, trips, LOB's, etc.....for liability reasons, its best to just leave any plastic beyond AOW in your pocket anyway...... When I travel, all I bring is my AOW and Nitrox cards and otherwise STFU about any other certs....

Nothing. It is a recognition award that says you did all those classes and did all those dives. PADI-bashers love to call it a participation trophy...but it is not. A participation award does not say you actually did anything, you were just there, you participated. A recognition award says you actually did some stuff and you ought to be recognized for it. Semantics? Maybe, but words and connotations mean something.


Do you have any evidence for this liability concern?

No recreational cert is going to increase your liability in a diving accident. Professional certs may or may not be different, I don't know.

PADI is the leading training organization in the US, if not the world. You can say you have Rescue, that is well understood. You can say you have MSD, that is also generally well understood.

 

[scubadada]

What does fish ID have in it that actually requires you to be in the water? I can conduct a fish ID class with a large selection of photos.

BS. It's fish ID and behavior A different take on Master Scuba Diver You can do it, or you can read about it, no question from me, I'm a proponent of the former.

 

[TMHeimer]

Hi everybody

I recently got (back) into scuba and I love it! I’m a few weeks away from completing PADI Master Scuba Diver. Having followed the forums for a few months and seen a general trend of similar (negative) views towards this rating, I thought I would present an alternative viewpoint to encourage others. I want to focus on the content of MSD rather than the title, as whilst I see how the MSD title is contentious, it is also highly subjective. I don’t personally have a problem with it.

By the time I complete MSD, I will have completed 21 training dives across nine courses (OW, AOW, EFR, RD, Nav, Deep, Wreck, Dry Suit and Nitrox) plus around five days of theory e-learning, so almost a month of full time training. I will have a further 29 recreational dives in both tropical and cold water, sea and lakes. Whilst I don’t feel I am ‘expert’, I do feel safe, competent and that I have mastered the basic skills in a range of conditions. Perhaps it’s not the usual approach but I have viewed it as a single training pipeline, albeit one that has been modularised to make it more accessible.

I have also enjoyed the flexibility, being able to tailor my specialties to my interests and local needs. I know another criticism is that you can count several non-dive specialties; but do many people actually do that? Or do most people actually take a combination of dive and non-dive training to suit their needs? Either way, as a minimum they still need RD and fifty dives.

The speciality courses on their own haven’t made me an expert, or even competent, in the skills taught. But I don’t think they aim to. You learn skills on the courses, but it’s through applying them on recreational dives outside of training that I’ve practiced them and built my experience.

Another one of the criticisms of MSD seems to be based on a comparison with NAUI MSD, but I don’t see how one is better or worse than the other. NAUI MSD requires 19 training dives (fewer than I have done with PADI) and a dive theory package-the professional dive theory course for PADI can be done separately (and optionally) or as part of the DM course. Those who want it can do it; but having looked into it, I don’t see how professional level dive theory is relevant for amateur recreational diving of this type, even for MSD.

The received wisdom on SB is to do courses such as NAUI MSD and GUE Fundies. If I’d followed the advice I’d read on SB I would never have considered PADI MSD as it feels like the only route advocated is to push to be a highly trained amateur diving specialist. I’d like to advocate an alternative for other newcomers to diving - PADI MSD has been challenging enough to be rewarding, but modular and flexible enough to be relevant and accessible. It has given me a good foundation to enjoy a new hobby, receive some good training, learn new skills - and have a lot of fun. Let’s not lose sight of that!

I'll throw in my usual 2 cents on this. First, I agree with you on the number of dives being about the same (or maybe more with PADI MSD than NAUI, depending on what specialties you take). One thing I do dislike about the PADI one (which I have) is any specialty counts toward the 5 required, even those without any dives. I think the 5 should be ones that either improve your basic diving or safety-- some disagree on this. I pretty much agree that a rec. diver doesn't need (a lot of) the pro dive theory. Some of it yes. I found that in taking the "old" PADI DM course in 2009 that as a working DM there was a lot of theory that I didn't come close to using-- much like all the info. you pick up as a music major that I never used either in teaching Band or in my own playing. Good info. though.

 

[drrich2]

Having followed the forums for a few months and seen a general trend of similar (negative) views towards this rating, I thought I would present an alternative viewpoint to encourage others.

By following the forums a few months and reading up on the subject here, you gained and demonstrate a much more informed view than many have who consider this path.

Whilst I don’t feel I am ‘expert’, I do feel safe, competent and that I have mastered the basic skills in a range of conditions. Perhaps it’s not the usual approach but I have viewed it as a single training pipeline, albeit one that has been modularised to make it more accessible.

I don't disagree with any of that. I think the credential/certification encourages some people to get additional formal training, and provides a loose structure to guide that. Just looking over specialty options makes divers aware of some of their options.

The title, and the inappropriately grandiose self-perception it might engender in some, do cause some concern. I think the larger concern is the sales pitch. I consider PADI to have something of an overly enthusiastic 'message' in their ads. Let's see what PADI says about the Master Scuba Diver Course on their website. From their site:

"Join the best of the best, the elite group of respected divers who have earned this rating through both significant experience and scuba training."

"Join the best of the best in recreational scuba diving and live the dive life as a PADI Master Scuba Diver. The Master Scuba Diver rating places you in an elite group of respected divers who have earned this rating through both significant experience and scuba training. Fewer than two percent of divers ever achieve this rating. When you flash your Master Scuba Diver card, people know that you've spent time underwater in a variety of environments and had your share of dive adventures.

Every diver, who is at least 12 years old, should aim for Master Scuba Diver."

So, the company that puts this course out basically claims (to my understanding, at least), that if you earn this rating, you are amongst the best of the best in recreational scuba diving. You are part of an elite group of respected divers (so evidently this is considered prestigious). 'When you flash your Master Scuba Diver card, people know...' And we should all aspire to this?

Never mind whether the credential ought to be given freely if requisites are met, or to be a course rather than a de facto 'scuba degree' for taking required dive coursework. PADI's own statements about it are triggering (and rightly so) to a lot of divers who read that marketing bit.

 

[Manatee Diver]

BS. It's fish ID and behavior A different take on Master Scuba Diver You can do it, or you can read about it, no question from me, I'm a proponent of the former.

There is nothing in that description and requires in water skills. That would be like a reg tech course, of course you want to test it. But do you require the test to be a dive?

My opinion, if I can replace the class with a powerpoint, it probably shouldn't be a certification.

 

[Robert H. Diver]

I think SSI’s method is the “best.” I just received my “master diver” rating from SSI but I wasn’t directly trying to get it. It was just awarded to me for completing the requirements. 50 dives, 4 specialties, and rescue. The specialties were nitrox, deep diver, Drysuit, and science of diving, and of course rescue. SSI processes it for free and I am automatically entered to win a live aboard for 2. I was not trying to get the “master” rating, nor do I believe I am a master of anything to do with diving.

 

[scubadada]

There is nothing in that description and requires in water skills. That would be like a reg tech course, of course you want to test it. But do you require the test to be a dive?

My opinion, if I can replace the class with a powerpoint, it probably shouldn't be a certification.

You didn't read my description (deleted descriptor)