Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

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You have not openly stated "don't use a pony" but you have made multiple attempts to downplay their value including trying to disparage them by quoting a bunch of BSAC. I asked earlier if you read your own posts, maybe I should ask if you read the articles you reference because in each of the reports you cited the pony was not responsible for the accident. Failure to deploy one was as was failing to orally inflate his BCD but you did not blame the BCD for the accident. The closest one could find as contributing to an issue was a dive failing to allow the the weight of the pony when they decided to dive without it. None, I repeat none got into trouble because they used a pony. So yes! I do include you with the OP as part of the problem I have described.

Where have I claimed that I would leave a buddy, you are the only one who has claimed that. If I am buddy diving then I have a responsibility to stay with my buddy if at all possible. Yes I have had to chase after errant buddies and have decided to not buddy with them in the future but I haven't just left them to join another group. What is your idea of buddy diving, your buddy should stay with you but you don't have to stay with your buddy or did he disappear because you were not watching him while expecting him to watch you. These signals that he did not respond to, did you have a briefing before the dive to go over them.
This reminds me of the ditchable weight argument from a couple of years back. The logic was there were all of these dead divers being hauled up still wearing their weights. The argument went that it proved ditchable lead did nothing to save all these dead divers….

Accidents that result in no injuries or deaths are never reported to DAN. If using a pony bottle resulted dead divers, we would have Accidents & Incidents being filled with reports of divers being knocked unconscious by their Pony bottles or exploding their heads or something. Since divers are not being found dead with fully or half-deployed ponies, my guess is it is not going to kill a new diver if he chooses to carry one.

And yes, my continuing participation in this thread is a direct result of getting back from a week of diving in Belize and a lack of desire to go drysuit diving in churned up New England waters….
 
You have not openly stated "don't use a pony" but you have made multiple attempts to downplay their value including trying to disparage them by quoting a bunch of BSAC. I asked earlier if you read your own posts, maybe I should ask if you read the articles you reference because in each of the reports you cited the pony was not responsible for the accident. Failure to deploy one was as was failing to orally inflate his BCD but you did not blame the BCD for the accident. The closest one could find as contributing to an issue was a dive failing to allow the the weight of the pony when they decided to dive without it. None, I repeat none got into trouble because they used a pony. So yes! I do include you with the OP as part of the problem I have described.

Where have I claimed that I would leave a buddy, you are the only one who has claimed that. If I am buddy diving then I have a responsibility to stay with my buddy if at all possible. Yes I have had to chase after errant buddies and have decided to not buddy with them in the future but I haven't just left them to join another group. What is your idea of buddy diving, your buddy should stay with you but you don't have to stay with your buddy or did he disappear because you were not watching him while expecting him to watch you. These signals that he did not respond to, did you have a briefing before the dive to go over them.
Seriously.. Could it be that I used that incident as an example after some one (perhaps you?) argued that blown o rings happen and pony makes sense for that? Because actually the diver run out of gas due blown ring. I also vaguely remember you (or someone else)arguing that it is easy to deploy a pony, why should someone fail, and I used the very same example that this person was unable to deploy his pony despite his buddy yelled at him to deploy it, he was probably in a panic state. If you are still claiming that pony is a silver bullet for blown o ring and out of air, I will stop discussing with you.
I am sorry those incidents happened but it is not my fault they are there. I am sure you would use positive examples if there was any in the very same reports. Facts vs theories vs believes vs point of views vs conspiracy.. I guess next is to discredit the sources if the data is not saying something else than beliefs.
This is no longer a healthy discussion, just bickering..
 
This is no longer a healthy discussion, just bickering..
At 92 pages in, you expect healthy dialogue instead of bickering?!?!? You're not that new here! :wink::eek::oops::rofl3:

Bickering often starts on page 5! Sometimes earlier!
 
Seriously.. Could it be that I used that incident as an example after some one (perhaps you?) argued that blown o rings happen and pony makes sense for that? Because actually the diver run out of gas due blown ring. I also vaguely remember you (or someone else)arguing that it is easy to deploy a pony, why should someone fail, and I used the very same example that this person was unable to deploy his pony despite his buddy yelled at him to deploy it, he was probably in a panic state. If you are still claiming that pony is a silver bullet for blown o ring and out of air, I will stop discussing with you.
I am sorry those incidents happened but it is not my fault they are there. I am sure you would use positive examples if there was any in the very same reports. Facts vs theories vs believes vs point of views vs conspiracy.. I guess next is to discredit the sources if the data is not saying something else than beliefs.
This is no longer a healthy discussion, just bickering..
Is a cutting instrument at fault if the diver does not deploy it to cut himself out of an entanglement, of course not any more than the pony is at fault when it is not deployed. It is just as likely that he would not be able to deploy his octo in a state of panic if that is the case. You ask me to provide positive examples from these same reports, why would successful deployment of a pony be in an accident and incidents report when it would have avoided the accident or incident from occurring. That would be like looking for examples of domestic bliss in a domestic violence report. I repeat none of the examples you cited has a pony as a root cause and it is even clutching at straws to suggest that they were even contributory.
 
Is a cutting instrument at fault if the diver does not deploy it to cut himself out of an entanglement, of course not any more than the pony is at fault when it is not deployed. It is just as likely that he would not be able to deploy his octo in a state of panic if that is the case. You ask me to provide positive examples from these same reports, why would successful deployment of a pony be in an accident and incidents report when it would have avoided the accident or incident from occurring. That would be like looking for examples of domestic bliss in a domestic violence report. I repeat none of the examples you cited has a pony as a root cause and it is even clutching at straws to suggest that they were even contributory.
You stated: I carry pony because I mitigate a bad/non existing buddy and sudden air loss risks
I stated: Oh that actually happened in real life and reported by bsac and diver did not make it and he had a pony, I do not think you are fully mitigating
Btw, thanks for your argumentation above (cutting instrument), as you say, there is no guarantee you can deploy the equipment in real life emergencies, I am happy we agree. But this will potentially render your pony a dead racoon you have been carrying around all your life.
Regarding your comments about successful cases not being recorded; actually those reports contain all reported incidents (oog, emergency ascents, dcs...), not only fatalities. There are several oog incidents, even successful deployment pony. But then, even an octopus would do in that case.

Accidents that result in no injuries or deaths are never reported to DAN. If using a pony bottle resulted dead divers, we would have Accidents & Incidents being filled with reports of divers being knocked unconscious by their Pony bottles or exploding their heads or something. Since divers are not being found dead with fully or half-deployed ponies, my guess is it is not going to kill a new diver if he chooses to carry one.
As said above, if you read the reports I referred to, you would have seen all kind of incidents have been reported, not fatalities or negative outcomes only. But I agree, who cares, too complicated, why bother to check, personal bias is underrated.

From brilliant BBC comedy Yes Minister:

"How to discredit an unwelcome report:

Stage One: Refuse to publish in the public interest saying
1. There are security considerations.
2. The findings could be misinterpreted.
3. You are waiting for the results of a wider and more detailed report
which is still in preparation. (If there isn't one, commission it;
this gives you even more time).

Stage Two: Discredit the evidence you are not publishing, saying
1. It leaves important questions unanswered.
2. Much of the evidence is inconclusive.
3. The figures are open to other interpretations.
4. Certain findings are contradictory.
5. Some of the main conclusions have been questioned. (If they
haven't, question them yourself; then they have).

Stage Three: Undermine the recommendations. Suggested phrases:
1. 'Not really a basis for long term decisions'.
2. 'Not sufficient information on which to base a valid assessment'.
3. 'No reason for any fundamental rethink of existing policy'.
4. 'Broadly speaking, it endorses current practice'.

Stage Four: Discredit the person who produced the report. Explain (off
the record) that
1. He is harbouring a grudge against the Department.
2. He is a publicity seeker.
3. He is trying to get a Knighthood/Chair/Vice Chancellorship.
4. He used to be a consultant to a multinational.
5. He wants to be a consultant to a multinational."
 
You stated: I carry pony because I mitigate a bad/non existing buddy and sudden air loss risks
I stated: Oh that actually happened in real life and reported by bsac and diver did not make it and he had a pony, I do not think you are fully mitigating
Btw, thanks for your argumentation above (cutting instrument), as you say, there is no guarantee you can deploy the equipment in real life emergencies, I am happy we agree. But this will potentially render your pony a dead racoon you have been carrying around all your life.
Regarding your comments about successful cases not being recorded; actually those reports contain all reported incidents (oog, emergency ascents, dcs...), not only fatalities. There are several oog incidents, even successful deployment pony. But then, even an octopus would do in that case.


As said above, if you read the reports I referred to, you would have seen all kind of incidents have been reported, not fatalities or negative outcomes only. But I agree, who cares, too complicated, why bother to check, personal bias is underrated.

From brilliant BBC comedy Yes Minister:

"How to discredit an unwelcome report:

Stage One: Refuse to publish in the public interest saying
1. There are security considerations.
2. The findings could be misinterpreted.
3. You are waiting for the results of a wider and more detailed report
which is still in preparation. (If there isn't one, commission it;
this gives you even more time).

Stage Two: Discredit the evidence you are not publishing, saying
1. It leaves important questions unanswered.
2. Much of the evidence is inconclusive.
3. The figures are open to other interpretations.
4. Certain findings are contradictory.
5. Some of the main conclusions have been questioned. (If they
haven't, question them yourself; then they have).

Stage Three: Undermine the recommendations. Suggested phrases:
1. 'Not really a basis for long term decisions'.
2. 'Not sufficient information on which to base a valid assessment'.
3. 'No reason for any fundamental rethink of existing policy'.
4. 'Broadly speaking, it endorses current practice'.

Stage Four: Discredit the person who produced the report. Explain (off
the record) that
1. He is harbouring a grudge against the Department.
2. He is a publicity seeker.
3. He is trying to get a Knighthood/Chair/Vice Chancellorship.
4. He used to be a consultant to a multinational.
5. He wants to be a consultant to a multinational."
Holy crap. All this because I didn’t watch TWO hours of video that MENTIONED a loose cam band a WEEK AGO? Do you honestly think anyone with a life actually read all 915 posts in this thread? Since this thread started I was on a week long dive trip to Belize (and hooking up with a hot chick). The day you posted your two hours of video (next time include time stamps for what you whistfully believe to be relevant in the post) I was out looking for a Halloween costume. Sorry to report, month long arguments on ScubaBoard, especially about something this inane, don’t trump real life.

I apologize for not watching TWO HOURS OF VIDEOS you posted to support your argument, but I have almost 15 hours of underwater video I shot while you were arguing about freakin’ pony bottles on the internet.
 
Holy crap. All this because I didn’t watch TWO hours of video that MENTIONED a loose cam band a WEEK AGO? Do you honestly think anyone with a life actually read all 915 posts in this thread? Since this thread started I was on a week long dive trip to Belize (and hooking up with a hot chick). The day you posted your two hours of video (next time include time stamps for what you whistfully believe to be relevant in the post) I was out looking for a Halloween costume. Sorry to report, month long arguments on ScubaBoard, especially about something this inane, don’t trump real life.

I apologize for not watching TWO HOURS OF VIDEOS you posted to support your argument, but I have almost 15 hours of underwater video I shot while you were arguing about freakin’ pony bottles on the internet.
Its actually not the videos, bsac incident reports Annual Diving Incident Report.
 
Sorry to report, month long arguments on ScubaBoard, especially about something this inane, don’t trump real life.
It also erodes my reasoning for participating in these debates, which as I have mentioned is mainly to provide enough different points of view that a newer diver trying to draw some conclusions would find the discussion useful. Newer divers want sound bites; even if a newer diver is really dedicated and understands that a sound bite on social media is just the tip of an iceberg, they might at most read a dozen or two pages of debate here, not a hundred. BTW, glad to hear you had a good trip and got out in the real world.
 
You stated: I carry pony because I mitigate a bad/non existing buddy and sudden air loss risks
I stated: Oh that actually happened in real life and reported by bsac and diver did not make it and he had a pony, I do not think you are fully mitigating
Btw, thanks for your argumentation above (cutting instrument), as you say, there is no guarantee you can deploy the equipment in real life emergencies, I am happy we agree. But this will potentially render your pony a dead racoon you have been carrying around all your life.
Regarding your comments about successful cases not being recorded; actually those reports contain all reported incidents (oog, emergency ascents, dcs...), not only fatalities. There are several oog incidents, even successful deployment pony. But then, even an octopus would do in that case.


As said above, if you read the reports I referred to, you would have seen all kind of incidents have been reported, not fatalities or negative outcomes only. But I agree, who cares, too complicated, why bother to check, personal bias is underrated.

From brilliant BBC comedy Yes Minister:

"How to discredit an unwelcome report:

Stage One: Refuse to publish in the public interest saying
1. There are security considerations.
2. The findings could be misinterpreted.
3. You are waiting for the results of a wider and more detailed report
which is still in preparation. (If there isn't one, commission it;
this gives you even more time).

Stage Two: Discredit the evidence you are not publishing, saying
1. It leaves important questions unanswered.
2. Much of the evidence is inconclusive.
3. The figures are open to other interpretations.
4. Certain findings are contradictory.
5. Some of the main conclusions have been questioned. (If they
haven't, question them yourself; then they have).

Stage Three: Undermine the recommendations. Suggested phrases:
1. 'Not really a basis for long term decisions'.
2. 'Not sufficient information on which to base a valid assessment'.
3. 'No reason for any fundamental rethink of existing policy'.
4. 'Broadly speaking, it endorses current practice'.

Stage Four: Discredit the person who produced the report. Explain (off
the record) that
1. He is harbouring a grudge against the Department.
2. He is a publicity seeker.
3. He is trying to get a Knighthood/Chair/Vice Chancellorship.
4. He used to be a consultant to a multinational.
5. He wants to be a consultant to a multinational."
The very act of carrying something like a pony cannot mitigate anything if you don't use it. Having condoms in your pocket won't stop you getting someone pregnant if you don't actually use them. Every time you use this example you further weaken your argument. The victim did not use his pony despite being urged to do so, he also didn't orally inflate his BCD despite being urged to. He froze in panic and could easily have drowned a less experienced buddy. So, if buddied with this victim would you want to do an air share with him in an OOA emergency or would you prefer to have available a redundant air source of which a pony is a suitable option.

Most of us recognize that a cutting instrument you can’t access is not of any value that is why redundancy in this regard is important. When diving in areas where entanglement is likely I carry a minimum of two and usually three and make sure that at least one of them, but usually two, can be accessed with either hand. In clear blue water where I don’t expect much risk of entanglement, I may just carry a line cutter. It is called equipping yourself for the conditions expected. Likewise in cold water or on deeper dives and when I have a concern about available buddies I will carry some form of redundant air supply. Other times when doing easy dives in warm clear water with people I know I may not.

Being laid up with a herniated disc I did wade through the 50 odd pages of the BSAC report to read the incident reports you cited. Not one of them supported your claims so there was no reason anyone would try to discredit them even if that was something they would even think about.

Like others have stated it is time to end this thread and suggest you do likewise to prevent further embarrassment.
 
Its actually not the videos, bsac incident reports Annual Diving Incident Report.
I did listen to the 2019 report presentation, because, again you did not post any data or quotes that I could see. What take home message did You want me to get from it? I have no idea.

6 deaths were associated with buddy separation and 2 were solo divers. Looking at mechanical failures (I did not read them all. One was a free flowing pony that was fixed and the dive continued. One was a free flowing octopus that completely drained the primary air and resulted in a free ascent (pony anyone?). Another was a entry with the air off. She was struggling on the surface, did not ditch her weights and her buddy turned her air on. If she had a pony, she would have at least been able to get air.

I didn’t see any instances in which a pony was a contributing factor, except for the one that free flowed and did not result in an aborted dive. What am I missing?
 
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