Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It also erodes my reasoning for participating in these debates, which as I have mentioned is mainly to provide enough different points of view that a newer diver trying to draw some conclusions would find the discussion useful. Newer divers want sound bites; even if a newer diver is really dedicated and understands that a sound bite on social media is just the tip of an iceberg, they might at most read a dozen or two pages of debate here, not a hundred. BTW, glad to hear you had a good trip and got out in the real world.

There's hardly ever convergence where there is a summary. It is hard to glean some helpful information from so many pages of arguing. No new diver considering the use of pony bottles wants to read all that. They'd like a concise summary of pros, cons and alternatives. All of that is here, but spread over how many posts?

 

[waterone]

so anyhow, 90 pages and 906 posts later, what about pony bottles for recreational SCUBA?

I went out to buy a pony bottle and realized that it was a marketing gimmick and I don't need to spend money on it, so I went home. I then read that it is good to be self reliant and a simple pony bottle accomplishes this So I went and purchased a pony.

I hooked up my pony to go diving when i then found out that in an OOG situation with my buddy takes 9 minutes to surface from 90 feet. I must be dreaming as my little pony...isn't gonna cut it for me and my buddy. So I put it back.

Then I thought what the hell am I going to be doing to waste 9 minutes doing in an OOG situation. So I grabbed my pony.

I went to go dive with my pony then was told I must not be planning my dives correctly and if I was that I should never need a backup for my air in emergency situations beyond my buddy. So I put the bottle back in the car.

I then realized that no matter my gas management skills that emergency air situations can happen for numerous reasons and my buddy might not be close enough or able to cope. So once again I grabbed the bottle.

Then while gearing up my buddy noticed the pony and assumed that it must mean I'm a bad buddy and plan on losing them, so put it back to help them feel comfortable.

Later, I pulled the pony bottle back out so I'd always have my own backup because really you never know when even a buddy might not work out and it shouldn't matter if they are insecure about it or if they simply decide to ditch me to join another buddy team.

Then I put it back after the coming to the conclusion that i must want a pony because of my own insecurities of the buddy system and that I am the bad buddy and along with gas planning, I and should work on my buddy skills.

A bit later I pulled the pony bottle out again with the rational that Its always better off having backup air in any scenario, especially if I'm a bad buddy. I shortly after realized my mistake and now see I should have gone with doubles and put the pony back on the shelf.

I finally then grabbed the pony bottle and realized I should use it if it is what I want to use and will continue to second guess my choices as I read others opinions. Thank god for scubaboard!

All belaying should be done with a backup

As far as I know the only backup commonly used for belaying is for braking and many still do not use those.

 

[scubaozy]

I did listen to the 2019 report presentation, because, again you did not post any data or quotes that I could see. What take home message did You want me to get from it? I have no idea.

6 deaths were associated with buddy separation and 2 were solo divers. Looking at mechanical failures (I did not read them all. One was a free flowing pony that was fixed and the dive continued. One was a free flowing octopus that completely drained the primary air and resulted in a free ascent (pony anyone?). Another was a entry with the air off. She was struggling on the surface, did not ditch her weights and her buddy turned her air on. If she had a pony, she would have at least been able to get air.

I didn’t see any instances in which a pony was a contributing factor, except for the one that free flowed and did not result in an aborted dive. What am I missing?

For instance (I think I shared this at least 1 or more times):
June 2019 19/130
A diver and his buddy, both using air, planned a depth progression dive on a wreck. They descended the shotline
and swam to an entry hatch into the bridge and entered the wreck at 26m. They descended to 35m and made a slow ascent to around 30m where they entered the wreck's day cabin area. The diver did not want to explore further due to his buddy's air consumption concerns so they carried out an air check and made their way back to their entry point. The diver felt a tightness in his regulator as they exited the wreck and it then failed. He switched to his pony cylinder regulator but not wanting to deplete this air supply he switched back onto the octopus regulator run from his main cylinder. This was set up on a short hose to be donated to a buddy and the diver had to breathe from the upturned regulator which allowed water ingress. The buddy offered assistance and was ready to donate his own octopus. The diver indicated he was 'OK' but decided to abort the dive and the pair swam to the shotline, ascended and carried out a 3 min safety stop at 6m. They surfaced with a dive duration of 17 min to a maximum depth of 35m. Back aboard their dive boat the diver realised that his pony cylinder was empty and his main cylinder still had 170 bar. The diver had started the dive using the pony cylinder's regulator rather than his primary one. The setup of his kit was that the primary regulator from his main 15 lt cylinder and the pony cylinder regulator came from his right side, one under his arm and the other over. Both hoses and regulators were black and no differentiation could be made. The diver remembered that as they were getting ready for the dive the surface cover aboard had been distracted dealing with an air leak from the buddy's equipment and he had not been checked before entering the water.

 

[grf88]

I did listen to the 2019 report presentation, because, again you did not post any data or quotes that I could see. What take home message did You want me to get from it? I have no idea.

6 deaths were associated with buddy separation and 2 were solo divers. Looking at mechanical failures (I did not read them all. One was a free flowing pony that was fixed and the dive continued. One was a free flowing octopus that completely drained the primary air and resulted in a free ascent (pony anyone?). Another was a entry with the air off. She was struggling on the surface, did not ditch her weights and her buddy turned her air on. If she had a pony, she would have at least been able to get air.

I didn’t see any instances in which a pony was a contributing factor, except for the one that free flowed and did not result in an aborted dive. What am I missing?

You did not miss anything.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I finally then grabbed the pony bottle and realized I should use it if it is what I want to use and will continue to second guess my choices as I read others opinions.

Maybe that sums it up. Every system has pros and cons. A good solution is one where you choose one of the several generally accepted systems, stick with it, practice and practice until it's instinctive, make sure that anyone you will be interacting with on your dives is familiar with the system, and never second-guess your choice.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I went out to buy a pony bottle and realized that it was a marketing gimmick and I don't need to spend money on it, so I went home. I then read that it is good to be self reliant and a simple pony bottle accomplishes this So I went and purchased a pony.

I hooked up my pony to go diving when i then found out that in an OOG situation with my buddy takes 9 minutes to surface from 90 feet. I must be dreaming as my little pony...isn't gonna cut it for me and my buddy. So I put it back.

Then I thought what the hell am I going to be doing to waste 9 minutes doing in an OOG situation. So I grabbed my pony.

I went to go dive with my pony then was told I must not be planning my dives correctly and if I was that I should never need a backup for my air in emergency situations beyond my buddy. So I put the bottle back in the car.

I then realized that no matter my gas management skills that emergency air situations can happen for numerous reasons and my buddy might not be close enough or able to cope. So once again I grabbed the bottle.

Then while gearing up my buddy noticed the pony and assumed that it must mean I'm a bad buddy and plan on losing them, so put it back to help them feel comfortable.

Later, I pulled the pony bottle back out so I'd always have my own backup because really you never know when even a buddy might not work out and it shouldn't matter if they are insecure about it or if they simply decide to ditch me to join another buddy team.

Then I put it back after the coming to the conclusion that i must want a pony because of my own insecurities of the buddy system and that I am the bad buddy and along with gas planning, I and should work on my buddy skills.

A bit later I pulled the pony bottle out again with the rational that Its always better off having backup air in any scenario, especially if I'm a bad buddy. I shortly after realized my mistake and now see I should have gone with doubles and put the pony back on the shelf.

I finally then grabbed the pony bottle and realized I should use it if it is what I want to use and will continue to second guess my choices as I read others opinions. Thank god for scubaboard!





As far as I know the only backup commonly used for belaying is for braking and many still do not use those.

I went out to buy a pony bottle and realized that it was a marketing gimmick and I don't need to spend money on it, so I went home. I then read that it is good to be self reliant and a simple pony bottle accomplishes this So I went and purchased a pony.

I hooked up my pony to go diving when i then found out that in an OOG situation with my buddy takes 9 minutes to surface from 90 feet. I must be dreaming as my little pony...isn't gonna cut it for me and my buddy. So I put it back.

Then I thought what the hell am I going to be doing to waste 9 minutes doing in an OOG situation. So I grabbed my pony.

I went to go dive with my pony then was told I must not be planning my dives correctly and if I was that I should never need a backup for my air in emergency situations beyond my buddy. So I put the bottle back in the car.

I then realized that no matter my gas management skills that emergency air situations can happen for numerous reasons and my buddy might not be close enough or able to cope. So once again I grabbed the bottle.

Then while gearing up my buddy noticed the pony and assumed that it must mean I'm a bad buddy and plan on losing them, so put it back to help them feel comfortable.

Later, I pulled the pony bottle back out so I'd always have my own backup because really you never know when even a buddy might not work out and it shouldn't matter if they are insecure about it or if they simply decide to ditch me to join another buddy team.

Then I put it back after the coming to the conclusion that i must want a pony because of my own insecurities of the buddy system and that I am the bad buddy and along with gas planning, I and should work on my buddy skills.

A bit later I pulled the pony bottle out again with the rational that Its always better off having backup air in any scenario, especially if I'm a bad buddy. I shortly after realized my mistake and now see I should have gone with doubles and put the pony back on the shelf.

I finally then grabbed the pony bottle and realized I should use it if it is what I want to use and will continue to second guess my choices as I read others opinions. Thank god for scubaboard!





As far as I know the only backup commonly used for belaying is for braking and many still do not use those.

I feel like I'm at a tennis match seated at the net. My neck is getting quite the workout. Oy!

 

[grf88]

For instance (I think I shared this at least 1 or more times):
June 2019 19/130
A diver and his buddy, both using air, planned a depth progression dive on a wreck. They descended the shotline
and swam to an entry hatch into the bridge and entered the wreck at 26m. They descended to 35m and made a slow ascent to around 30m where they entered the wreck's day cabin area. The diver did not want to explore further due to his buddy's air consumption concerns so they carried out an air check and made their way back to their entry point. The diver felt a tightness in his regulator as they exited the wreck and it then failed. He switched to his pony cylinder regulator but not wanting to deplete this air supply he switched back onto the octopus regulator run from his main cylinder. This was set up on a short hose to be donated to a buddy and the diver had to breathe from the upturned regulator which allowed water ingress. The buddy offered assistance and was ready to donate his own octopus. The diver indicated he was 'OK' but decided to abort the dive and the pair swam to the shotline, ascended and carried out a 3 min safety stop at 6m. They surfaced with a dive duration of 17 min to a maximum depth of 35m. Back aboard their dive boat the diver realised that his pony cylinder was empty and his main cylinder still had 170 bar. The diver had started the dive using the pony cylinder's regulator rather than his primary one. The setup of his kit was that the primary regulator from his main 15 lt cylinder and the pony cylinder regulator came from his right side, one under his arm and the other over. Both hoses and regulators were black and no differentiation could be made. The diver remembered that as they were getting ready for the dive the surface cover aboard had been distracted dealing with an air leak from the buddy's equipment and he had not been checked before entering the water.

Just like not using something using something incorrectly is not a problem with the item but with the user. I guess you are determined to embarrass yourself further.

 

[scubaozy]

Is somebody talking?

 

[Searcaigh]

 

[CT-Rich]

For instance (I think I shared this at least 1 or more times):
June 2019 19/130
A diver and his buddy, both using air, planned a depth progression dive on a wreck. They descended the shotline
and swam to an entry hatch into the bridge and entered the wreck at 26m. They descended to 35m and made a slow ascent to around 30m where they entered the wreck's day cabin area. The diver did not want to explore further due to his buddy's air consumption concerns so they carried out an air check and made their way back to their entry point. The diver felt a tightness in his regulator as they exited the wreck and it then failed. He switched to his pony cylinder regulator but not wanting to deplete this air supply he switched back onto the octopus regulator run from his main cylinder. This was set up on a short hose to be donated to a buddy and the diver had to breathe from the upturned regulator which allowed water ingress. The buddy offered assistance and was ready to donate his own octopus. The diver indicated he was 'OK' but decided to abort the dive and the pair swam to the shotline, ascended and carried out a 3 min safety stop at 6m. They surfaced with a dive duration of 17 min to a maximum depth of 35m. Back aboard their dive boat the diver realised that his pony cylinder was empty and his main cylinder still had 170 bar. The diver had started the dive using the pony cylinder's regulator rather than his primary one. The setup of his kit was that the primary regulator from his main 15 lt cylinder and the pony cylinder regulator came from his right side, one under his arm and the other over. Both hoses and regulators were black and no differentiation could be made. The diver remembered that as they were getting ready for the dive the surface cover aboard had been distracted dealing with an air leak from the buddy's equipment and he had not been checked before entering the water.

So, how does this USER ERROR prove anything? He still had an alternate air supply when his cylinder was empty…

There was a reason this ridiculousness was moved to advanced. I would have abandoned it long ago if it was in front of Newbies…