Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

For instance (I think I shared this at least 1 or more times):
June 2019 19/130
A diver and his buddy, both using air, planned a depth progression dive on a wreck. They descended the shotline
and swam to an entry hatch into the bridge and entered the wreck at 26m. They descended to 35m and made a slow ascent to around 30m where they entered the wreck's day cabin area. The diver did not want to explore further due to his buddy's air consumption concerns so they carried out an air check and made their way back to their entry point. The diver felt a tightness in his regulator as they exited the wreck and it then failed. He switched to his pony cylinder regulator but not wanting to deplete this air supply he switched back onto the octopus regulator run from his main cylinder. This was set up on a short hose to be donated to a buddy and the diver had to breathe from the upturned regulator which allowed water ingress. The buddy offered assistance and was ready to donate his own octopus. The diver indicated he was 'OK' but decided to abort the dive and the pair swam to the shotline, ascended and carried out a 3 min safety stop at 6m. They surfaced with a dive duration of 17 min to a maximum depth of 35m. Back aboard their dive boat the diver realised that his pony cylinder was empty and his main cylinder still had 170 bar. The diver had started the dive using the pony cylinder's regulator rather than his primary one. The setup of his kit was that the primary regulator from his main 15 lt cylinder and the pony cylinder regulator came from his right side, one under his arm and the other over. Both hoses and regulators were black and no differentiation could be made. The diver remembered that as they were getting ready for the dive the surface cover aboard had been distracted dealing with an air leak from the buddy's equipment and he had not been checked before entering the water.

I REALLY should not be stepping into this, but this story proves that the one diver didn't have his kit sorted nor had the situational awareness. I am not throwing rocks here as I once mixed up my pony reg with my back gas on the backside of Molokini (which was group diving, no buddy diving). I fixed that my reconfiguring my setup with a different reg and placing it on a necklace under my neck, so no way would I mistake it.

This does not disprove that ponies are useful, but just the importance of knowing one's equipment and having proper configuration.

But I must ask, WHAT IN THE HELL WERE THESE GUYS DOING GOING INSIDE A WRECK WITHOUT PROPER TRAINING AND EQUIPMENT.

 

[scubaozy]

So, how does this USER ERROR prove anything? He still had an alternate air supply when his cylinder was empty…

There was a reason this ridiculousness was moved to advanced. I would have abandoned it long ago if it was in front of Newbies…

You can't have user error if you don't use it. It is nearly always user error with equipment (direct quote to Dan Orr from previous DAN video I shared). Point is, they took it with them because they thought they could use it. That could be you.

 

[grf88]

You can't have user error if you don't use it. It is nearly always user error with equipment (direct quote to Dan Orr from previous DAN video I shared). Point is, they took it with them because they thought they could use it. That could be you.

Then I guess we should all take up free diving but without the fins and mask.

 

[KenGordon]

Holy crap. All this because I didn’t watch TWO hours of video that MENTIONED a loose cam band a WEEK AGO? Do you honestly think anyone with a life actually read all 915 posts in this thread? Since this thread started I was on a week long dive trip to Belize (and hooking up with a hot chick). The day you posted your two hours of video (next time include time stamps for what you whistfully believe to be relevant in the post) I was out looking for a Halloween costume. Sorry to report, month long arguments on ScubaBoard, especially about something this inane, don’t trump real life.

I apologize for not watching TWO HOURS OF VIDEOS you posted to support your argument, but I have almost 15 hours of underwater video I shot while you were arguing about freakin’ pony bottles on the internet.

You could do a lot worse that spend the time watching those videos. I drive for three hours to get to sit in the audience. Sadly the contents, the results of the mistakes people make, are similar year to year. These reports are much more informative than any number of speculative SB threads.

 

[KenGordon]

Just like not using something using something incorrectly is not a problem with the item but with the user. I guess you are determined to embarrass yourself further.

So, how does this USER ERROR prove anything? He still had an alternate air supply when his cylinder was empty…

There was a reason this ridiculousness was moved to advanced. I would have abandoned it long ago if it was in front of Newbies…

If a system can result in serious injuries or death with simple user errors then it is not a wonderful system. We all get more stupid under water and make mistakes. We ought to avoid such systems and not promote them to people who are inexperienced or likely to make the mistakes that have bad results.

There are several examples in the Incident Report of people making mistakes with ponies like the one a few posts ago, some resulting in death.

This view of not exposing myself to my own stupidity influences my choice of configuration. For example, I am tempted to add a BOV feed to my dil reg first stage so I could do a 10m quarry dive or get in the pool without a proper bailout. I don’t because it would introduce a failure where I plug into the wrong feed and thus might bailout onto the wrong source.

System design must take into account real world use. Saying “the user would need to be an idiot to do X” is no excuse if X kills or injures people.

 

[Wibble]

For instance (I think I shared this at least 1 or more times):
June 2019 19/130
A diver and his buddy, both using air, planned a depth progression dive on a wreck. They descended the shotline
and swam to an entry hatch into the bridge and entered the wreck at 26m. They descended to 35m and made a slow ascent to around 30m where they entered the wreck's day cabin area. The diver did not want to explore further due to his buddy's air consumption concerns so they carried out an air check and made their way back to their entry point. The diver felt a tightness in his regulator as they exited the wreck and it then failed. He switched to his pony cylinder regulator but not wanting to deplete this air supply he switched back onto the octopus regulator run from his main cylinder. This was set up on a short hose to be donated to a buddy and the diver had to breathe from the upturned regulator which allowed water ingress. The buddy offered assistance and was ready to donate his own octopus. The diver indicated he was 'OK' but decided to abort the dive and the pair swam to the shotline, ascended and carried out a 3 min safety stop at 6m. They surfaced with a dive duration of 17 min to a maximum depth of 35m. Back aboard their dive boat the diver realised that his pony cylinder was empty and his main cylinder still had 170 bar. The diver had started the dive using the pony cylinder's regulator rather than his primary one. The setup of his kit was that the primary regulator from his main 15 lt cylinder and the pony cylinder regulator came from his right side, one under his arm and the other over. Both hoses and regulators were black and no differentiation could be made. The diver remembered that as they were getting ready for the dive the surface cover aboard had been distracted dealing with an air leak from the buddy's equipment and he had not been checked before entering the water.

Dig a little deeper into this whole incident and there's lots to learn. The tank-mounted pony cylinder is quite common in this part of the world and very much a BSAC thing (the report is from BSAC). Typically a 15 litre main cylinder has a 3 litre steel pony cylinder strapped to the side. This is used by many experienced divers.

Distraction is probably the primary cause of failures underwater. We've all forgotten to connect our drysuit hose at one time or other - or left the zip undone! In this case the diver validated his pony regulator on the boat (good practice), but was distracted before switching to the main regulator (bad).

Underwater, how do you identify a PONY (piss off not yours) regulator against the primary regulator? If a back-mounted (to the side of the 15 litre tank) pony is used (almost certainly was in this report), this may well have the regulator coming out sideways on the same side as the primary. Where is that pony reg parked? How do you check the gas pressureS on both pony and primary cylinders -- are there two SPGs on hoses, are they marked?

Seems that the diver's buddy didn't notice that the pony was being used. An easy thing to miss especially if the pony's hose and reg are the same colour as the primary. Question: where was the primary reg stowed; was it dangling?

It's very easy to criticise the diver in the height of the 'stress' (don't want to use the term panic, but if you're out of gas it's the very definition of a 'stressful' situation at the very least).

Good old human factors come in and steps are missed. It's so easy for me sitting at a computer with a cup of tea next to me to jump on them. They, as in both divers, ended up assuming that the diver was out of gas and didn't check the cylinder pressures to "debug" or analyse what the actual problem is. They jumped straight to the "get the heck out of Dodge" step.



Hopefully the lessons learned included:

• Mitigate distractions by running a final "pat down" check (drysuit, regulatorS, BCD, etc.)
• Clearly mark the pony regulator to differentiate it from the primary -- different colour, gaffa/ducktape on the reg, different colour hoses)
• Check gas pressureS regularly
• Be aware of breathing from the wrong regulator (this is also applicable to a closed twinset manifold)
• Regularly practice using the pony

Best of all; everyone lived. Everyone learns.

 

[grf88]

If a system can result in serious injuries or death with simple user errors then it is not a wonderful system. We all get more stupid under water and make mistakes. We ought to avoid such systems and not promote them to people who are inexperienced or likely to make the mistakes that have bad results.

There are several examples in the Incident Report of people making mistakes with ponies like the one a few posts ago, some resulting in death.

This view of not exposing myself to my own stupidity influences my choice of configuration. For example, I am tempted to add a BOV feed to my dil reg first stage so I could do a 10m quarry dive or get in the pool without a proper bailout. I don’t because it would introduce a failure where I plug into the wrong feed and thus might bailout onto the wrong source.

System design must take into account real world use. Saying “the user would need to be an idiot to do X” is no excuse if X kills or injures people.

Just a reminder that the title of this thread is "Recreational pony bottles, completely unnecessary, why or why not."
In the cited example the diver was unable to inflate his BCD orally, is a BCD too complicated and should not be used. People did dive before BCD's. In another the octo was misused, is that too complicated and should not be used, it is a newer addition to diving gear, as least since I have been diving.
For someone who uses a rebreather to suggest that a pony is too complicated and should be avoided because it is dangerous is frankly beyond ludicrous.
By your logic any form of redundant air should be avoided because things like manifolded doubles are way more complicated than a pony and maybe a regular scuba set should be avoided as well.

 

[Wibble]

For someone who uses a rebreather to suggest that a pony is too complicated and should be avoided because it is dangerous is frankly beyond ludicrous.

Depends upon the configuration of the pony. If you're thinking of a stage mounted cylinder a-la bailout, then yes, it's easy.

If the pony is a steel cylinder mounted on the side of the main tank, possibly with the hose bungeed to the side (have seen that before) with a button SPG then maybe not. Those are hard to deploy and are out of the way so it's not "in your face" and if unpracticed, may well be forgotten -- worse still, the pony gas may be turned off.

As @KenGordon said, we all get more stupid under water and we all make mistakes.

 

[grf88]

Depends upon the configuration of the pony. If you're thinking of a stage mounted cylinder a-la bailout, then yes, it's easy.

If the pony is a steel cylinder mounted on the side of the main tank, possibly with the hose bungeed to the side (have seen that before) with a button SPG then maybe not. Those are hard to deploy and are out of the way so it's not "in your face" and if unpracticed, may well be forgotten -- worse still, the pony gas may be turned off.

As @KenGordon said, we all get more stupid under water and we all make mistakes.

I have never understood why someone would want to mount the pony on their tank, it is very uncommon in my area but I have seen it a couple of times. It seems to have all the disadvantages that you describe without having any real advantage.

 

[CT-Rich]

If a system can result in serious injuries or death with simple user errors then it is not a wonderful system. We all get more stupid under water and make mistakes. We ought to avoid such systems and not promote them to people who are inexperienced or likely to make the mistakes that have bad results.

There are several examples in the Incident Report of people making mistakes with ponies like the one a few posts ago, some resulting in death.

This view of not exposing myself to my own stupidity influences my choice of configuration. For example, I am tempted to add a BOV feed to my dil reg first stage so I could do a 10m quarry dive or get in the pool without a proper bailout. I don’t because it would introduce a failure where I plug into the wrong feed and thus might bailout onto the wrong source.

System design must take into account real world use. Saying “the user would need to be an idiot to do X” is no excuse if X kills or injures people.

I didn’t say the diver was an idiot. I said it was user error. As others have stated there are reasonable fixes to prevent similar errors in the future. Every DIR, GUI Tech, wreck and cave configuration comes from trial and error. Like this incident, most of these experiences are non-fatal.

We hear a lot about suicide clips and other things because someone does die. But in reality, a lot of it is more mundane. My line cutter was rusted out when I needed it. I think I’ll buy a ceramic one. My gauge is dangling. I saw a retractor on sale at the shop. The diver in this incident will either color code his pony reg or simply be more mindful of gear before splashing.

By the way, he didn’t die. He just suffered the embarrassment of being written up in the BSAC Report.