Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[boulderjohn]

I don't think I was criticizing PADI, and while the intent of the WRSTC is laudable, the implementation (standards) that agencies have implemented to achieve that intent is lacking.

The only way this will change is if agencies set the bar higher, as long as a buddha hover is good enough to meet standards, people are going to teach that way.

There are signs of hope though, I was glad to see PADI's requirement that some skills be performed in neutral buoyancy for DM candidates to achieve a 5. Eventually I expect those skills will translate to some instructors teaching that way. It's a small step forward, but I hope it makes the average instructor a little better.

When I first started assisting classes and then teaching, the Buddha hover was the norm. Everyone in our shop was careful to ensure that all students met the standards for the pool sessions. Most of our students then went on to get certified on trips to tropical realms, and we got frequent feedback on how well prepared our students were. We did handle a decent portion of our own OW dives, and we were, again, meticulous about meeting standards. I never saw anyone leave our program who was not a competent OW diver.

Then I began experimenting with neutrally buoyant, horizontal training, and by the time I had that figured out, my students were well beyond competent. (In one memorable case, a DM thought my former students were advanced, experienced divers when they were actually on their first dive after OW certification.) Seeing the difference, our director of instruction required it of all our instructors, and soon all our graduates were beyond that level of competence.

It has now been a decade since PADI first published the article on neutrally buoyant OW instruction and began to promote the practice. Do I wish they had promoted it more? Certainly--and I assure you PADI headquarters knows how I feel about that. Do I wish all instructors would finally get their students off their knees? You bet!

But even when students are still taught on the knees, if the standards are followed correctly, they will graduate as competent divers. They can be much better, but they are at least competent. You can always argue for a definition of competent that exceeds all others, but they will be plenty good enough for beginning OW diving.

There is one very serious area where even instructors who think they are meeting the standards fail, and that is in weighting. Teaching on the knees demands that students be overweighted--significantly so. When I was still teaching students on the knees, meeting the weight check standard was a real challenge. I essentially had to weight them two different ways--doing the skills on the knees and then doing the weight check and later swimming skills properly weighted. I am sure most instructors who still teach on the knees just have the students overweighted throughout. To meet standards properly, though, students must learn to be properly weighted, and to meet current PADI standards, they must be taught to distribute weights for proper trim. Instructors teaching neutrally buoyant students are much better off to have students properly weighted throughout the class.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I am sure most instructors who still teach on the knees just have the students overweighted throughout.

I would bet everything I own that this is true.

 

[boulderjohn]

When I was in college, I was reasonably proficient in calculus. When I was in graduate school with a major that had nothing to do with math, I still retained enough math knowledge that when I earned money as a substitute teacher, I was in high demand by the high school math teachers because I could step in and teach anything in the high school math curriculum without preparation.

Not now, though. Not even close. I can only remember the basic math I need for everyday life and for scuba instruction. All of that learning faded with time.

The same is true of scuba students. They could be as good as can possibly be expected at the end of their OW training. They will probably go on a quick trip that will make them even better. Give them a couple years off, though, and they will be flummoxed by the things they forgot over time.

I had to learn to use the PADI wheel to plan dives in order to become an instructor. Don't ask me how to use one now.

 

[CT-Rich]

This is a failure of the whole system including the students, instructors, agencies and the dive centres. As a professional instructor my biggest problem was the time pressure. Every person learns the core skills in different pace but course is limited to 4 days. You have huge variable of human talent but fixed time. Generally this is sufficient but it can be borderline. Typical student will show up without having read the book and will take 1 day off in between either ear problem, general tiredness, or sometimes to practice basic kicks and snorkeling. So in average 5th day of their holiday they will be certified and that leaves them 1 extra day of diving of their week holiday and they will fly home.
1 (or more) year(s) later, they will go on holidays and when they check in they will barely be able to put their kits together. When I check in a diver <10 dives, as a guide, during that week usually divers nearly need to nearly relearn the core skills and if I am available, I will help them improve. Do I blame the instructor? No. Because when I certified my students they met the minimum requirements. I am pretty sure their instructor did a good job as well.
Above case is a good dive centre I worked. The less good one will immediately offer them an AOWD and student will now have to relearn diving within same week and get a pass to dive to 30m.
Its the whole system that is causing the problem. I actually in contrast worked with very few dud instructors, I cannot share the same sentiment that it is the instructors that are the problem.

Saying the whole system is broken for a recreational activity that many (most?) practice as a holiday past time seems pretty harsh. Really, what are the objectives of your basic open water class? For most students, they want a pleasant water activity they can do a few times on holiday every year or so. For the industry, it is to get enough people to engage in the sport to keep it economically viable and to create enough people who will take it seriously enough to engage in advanced classes, higher end equipment, and dive travel. For the environment, you don’t want them rototilling the ecosystem. There are good reasons why they put DM in the water at destination dive sites

I taught high school for twelve years, not every kid was destined for college and for the most part, you have to be happy when kids graduate with the basic tools to get a job and lead a productive life. Most kids that graduate HS are fairly incompetent at most things. They usually figure it out eventually. Expecting a vacation diver to approach OW certification like a hiker approaching Everest, may be aiming a tad high.

That the beaches of the world are not strewn with the corpses of OW students may be an indication that while not perfect, the system works (more or less).

 

[rhwestfall]

This is sounding like a NASCAR driver saying "kids these days are just horrible drivers because the driver's training classes suck"....

 

[rhwestfall]

so anyhow, 90 pages and 906 posts later, what about pony bottles for recreational SCUBA?

 

[Cio]

I take it that you have never been rock climbing.

While some climbing systems use redundant ropes, that's the exception, not the norm. Even in those cases, there are many life support items that have no redundancy, but they engineered with enough of a safety margin that the assumption is they will never break (similar to the idea that a first stage is designed never to fail closed).

There are similar issues in climbing with insta-buddies (insta-belayers). I will say that the normalization of deviance from the procedures we are trained to use, particularly in casual settings (shallow Caribbean reef, lead climbing in a gym) is much greater in SCUBA than in climbing.

In general, climbers are better and more consistent about buddy checks and have a greater understanding of their responsibilities to their partner.

[Begin deliberate simplification]
In SCUBA, a buddy is there in case of an emergency, not required unless there is an issue. In climbing, a buddy is essential and their mistake is often the cause of an emergency.
[End deliberate simplification]

I do rock climb. A rope is not an example of a non redundant item. The multitude of threads making up the rope make it redundant, Many of those strands can fail and the rope will not. All belaying should be done with a backup and the climber ties into two loops, fully redundant attachment to both parties and the rope, integrated redundant system cased in a sheath, provide a fully redundant safety system.

 

[grf88]

so anyhow, 90 pages and 906 posts later, what about pony bottles for recreational SCUBA?

I think they are totally unnecessary

Note: you may need to check the meaning of the smiley chosen.

 

[Celt]

I do rock climb. A rope is not an example of a non redundant item. The multitude of threads making up the rope make it redundant, Many of those strands can fail and the rope will not. All belaying should be done with a backup and the climber ties into two loops, fully redundant attachment to both parties and the rope, integrated redundant system cased in a sheath, provide a fully redundant safety system.

 

[grf88]

Stop playing the victim, not one person told you should not use pony except OP and he already is long gone.
Alone in this thread you have several posts like broken record starting with "some people ......"
I have also concern because according to bsac incident reports divers get into trouble because they used pony. We discuss it here so that people hear all possible outcomes.


Sorry but your own scenario counts on it that you are separated, so, you already left him and you planned it from the beginning that way. If my buddy is swimming off against my signals and our dive plan, warrants me to act and end that contract. I will not jump the cliff because my buddy did. Well, I am not a native speaker but it takes a lot of imagination to turn the phrase "if my buddy swims off" to abandoning the buddy.

You have not openly stated "don't use a pony" but you have made multiple attempts to downplay their value including trying to disparage them by quoting a bunch of BSAC. I asked earlier if you read your own posts, maybe I should ask if you read the articles you reference because in each of the reports you cited the pony was not responsible for the accident. Failure to deploy one was as was failing to orally inflate his BCD but you did not blame the BCD for the accident. The closest one could find as contributing to an issue was a dive failing to allow the the weight of the pony when they decided to dive without it. None, I repeat none got into trouble because they used a pony. So yes! I do include you with the OP as part of the problem I have described.

Where have I claimed that I would leave a buddy, you are the only one who has claimed that. If I am buddy diving then I have a responsibility to stay with my buddy if at all possible. Yes I have had to chase after errant buddies and have decided to not buddy with them in the future but I haven't just left them to join another group. What is your idea of buddy diving, your buddy should stay with you but you don't have to stay with your buddy or did he disappear because you were not watching him while expecting him to watch you. These signals that he did not respond to, did you have a briefing before the dive to go over them.