SkimFisher
Contributor
Also, there is a difference between being ignorant and new. Not sure if anyone pointed that out yet...
Can You 'Really' Dive?
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Although I haven't read all of the replies either, I don't think that the OP is putting down new divers (I'm not defending the OP BTW). I think it comes down to (and I'm assuming a lot here) that many new divers are just not able to look after themselves despite the fact they are certified. Some certifications are handed out that require the new diver to be directly supervised by a DM or Instructor. If the diveboat wasn't prepared for an onslaught of such divers, it may not be reasonable for the DMs to comply with what was expected (hence my suggestion for better communication).
The new diver is not at fault here; nor is the DM or Instructor. The Dive Operator must make sure that the Clients are aware of the parameters of the dive and choose either to turn away those which the dive cannot accommodate and charge accordingly for the necessary supervision. Perhaps this is a benefit to those who have taken more extensive training (and were charged accordingly)whereby they don't need supervision. There is of course the problem of students being charged for OW training and not being competent to dive without supervision. A problem created by the certifying Instructor and likely the LDS where the training was given.
TEArrington
Registered
Maybe instead of rants about unskilled divers, we could focus on safety and consideration for others, as there might be some valid concerns ignored when reacting to ugly generalisms being tossed around. So, as a newer diver here's my take, for better or worse:
New divers who want to continue diving after their check out dives should continue to improve their skills by practicing their sport. It's up to each diver to obtain, check, and maintain their own equipment. It's up to each diver to know their skill limits and find a dive buddy that complements them. If you are a new diver, be extra careful because you may not even know the requirements for a given dive site well enough to know why you lack the requisite skills. The important thing is to first talk to folks before you get to the dive site. Try going with organized groups, either an LDS, a dive club, or find a buddy on Scuba Board. If you are new, try to find (before you get there) a more experienced diver who is willing to help you. Don't assume everyone wants to be your coach, although you will likely find many who are willing to help. Also, be considerate of your buddy's dive time too. Even someone who doesn't mind helping you on occassion may not want to spend every dive on their trip coaching you. They might want to spend some time doing more difficult dives that you are not ready for yet. So, it helps to have a few folks lined up to help you, and one easy way to accomplish that is to hire a DM.
Once you get to the dive site, I can't stress the importance of a thorough, detailed dive briefing for all divers (new & experienced). The reason is that there are almost always subtle differences in the ways we were taught or continue to execute things like hand signs, dive planning, etc. My equipment is different than yours, so let's show each other how our stuff works before we get in the water.
If you take the time to find folks to dive with that are the right match for your skill level, and if you are willing to put in the time to learn more about yourself, your equipment, and improving your diving skills, you might just find a few new life long friends and a hobby you are passionate about. If you assume (whether about your buddy, your equipment, or your skills), well, we all know what happens then....
Lastly, for all those folks who have been diving with me, and have helped me in so many ways, I want to say thank you. I've learned a lot from all of you and I hope to pay it forward to other new divers in a year or two. And meanwhile, don't worry - I've got plenty of air for both of us.
New divers who want to continue diving after their check out dives should continue to improve their skills by practicing their sport. It's up to each diver to obtain, check, and maintain their own equipment. It's up to each diver to know their skill limits and find a dive buddy that complements them. If you are a new diver, be extra careful because you may not even know the requirements for a given dive site well enough to know why you lack the requisite skills. The important thing is to first talk to folks before you get to the dive site. Try going with organized groups, either an LDS, a dive club, or find a buddy on Scuba Board. If you are new, try to find (before you get there) a more experienced diver who is willing to help you. Don't assume everyone wants to be your coach, although you will likely find many who are willing to help. Also, be considerate of your buddy's dive time too. Even someone who doesn't mind helping you on occassion may not want to spend every dive on their trip coaching you. They might want to spend some time doing more difficult dives that you are not ready for yet. So, it helps to have a few folks lined up to help you, and one easy way to accomplish that is to hire a DM.
Once you get to the dive site, I can't stress the importance of a thorough, detailed dive briefing for all divers (new & experienced). The reason is that there are almost always subtle differences in the ways we were taught or continue to execute things like hand signs, dive planning, etc. My equipment is different than yours, so let's show each other how our stuff works before we get in the water.
If you take the time to find folks to dive with that are the right match for your skill level, and if you are willing to put in the time to learn more about yourself, your equipment, and improving your diving skills, you might just find a few new life long friends and a hobby you are passionate about. If you assume (whether about your buddy, your equipment, or your skills), well, we all know what happens then....
Lastly, for all those folks who have been diving with me, and have helped me in so many ways, I want to say thank you. I've learned a lot from all of you and I hope to pay it forward to other new divers in a year or two. And meanwhile, don't worry - I've got plenty of air for both of us.
FishOutUvH2O
Contributor
It's not really "we" that needs to focus. It's the OP and a small group of people. In my limited experience, the vast majority of divers I run into are already safe and considerate and more than willing to either learn, if they're a novice, or help out if they're more experienced. This thread just happened to be one persons web rant.
MLRoberts
New
Instructors or DM's that make their living in the business may have a harder time than the rest of us keeping the "Big Picture" in perspective. Certainly, you might get aggravated from dealing with less-experienced divers on a daily basis, and that frustration might carry over into certain actions or comments.
If that happens, they (the frustrated Instructors or DM's) might ask themselves "Do I really want to do this?".
I have been involved in different sports over the years, and seen several of those sports die down due to lack of "new blood" coming in. I was certified AOW in 1974, worked as a hard-hat diver in the Gulf for two years (had to quit to catch up on my truck payments), served as a DiveCon for awhile, and then got out of the sport for a number of years.
Two years ago, I returned to the sport that I love the most (diving), and am now working on re-acquiring my Divemaster rating - JUST so that I can help new divers enjoy what I have enjoyed over the years.
I consider it a thrill to help students or new divers learn some of the "tricks" that will make them better divers, and to assist them in any way I can. The other day, I helped a "smallish" 12-year old boy pack his tank and gear down the ramp to the water. He now has his Open Water card. It was a great feeling doing that.
Is an "experienced" diver one that has made hundreds (or even thousands) of "repetitive" dives, or one who has ONLY two or three years of diving, but done so under rigorous or demanding conditions?
If they can't haul their arse or gear, or don't understand why their computer is beeping at them, I may not choose to "buddy" with them. But as a DM (or Instructor), I would make it a personal challenge to help them as much as I can - in the most positive manner that I can.
As I have learned in other sports, the "newbies" are just as important to the sport, if not MORE so, as the Old Guard. We should ALL remember that.......
If that happens, they (the frustrated Instructors or DM's) might ask themselves "Do I really want to do this?".
I have been involved in different sports over the years, and seen several of those sports die down due to lack of "new blood" coming in. I was certified AOW in 1974, worked as a hard-hat diver in the Gulf for two years (had to quit to catch up on my truck payments), served as a DiveCon for awhile, and then got out of the sport for a number of years.
Two years ago, I returned to the sport that I love the most (diving), and am now working on re-acquiring my Divemaster rating - JUST so that I can help new divers enjoy what I have enjoyed over the years.
I consider it a thrill to help students or new divers learn some of the "tricks" that will make them better divers, and to assist them in any way I can. The other day, I helped a "smallish" 12-year old boy pack his tank and gear down the ramp to the water. He now has his Open Water card. It was a great feeling doing that.
Is an "experienced" diver one that has made hundreds (or even thousands) of "repetitive" dives, or one who has ONLY two or three years of diving, but done so under rigorous or demanding conditions?
If they can't haul their arse or gear, or don't understand why their computer is beeping at them, I may not choose to "buddy" with them. But as a DM (or Instructor), I would make it a personal challenge to help them as much as I can - in the most positive manner that I can.
As I have learned in other sports, the "newbies" are just as important to the sport, if not MORE so, as the Old Guard. We should ALL remember that.......
SkimFisher
Contributor
InTheDrink
Contributor
I haven't read all the posts on this thread but your original premise is so offensive and elitist to make me pretty sure I'd never want to dive with you.
J
Reading past the words . . . Skuba girls sounds like she's had dives ruined by spoiled, self-centered people - or perhaps one person that left a lasting, negative affect.
I'm sure we've all seen them -- the one that carries the lightest things, and demonstrates an attitude of "you don't expect me to carry that, do you?" You know, the one that boards the boat without asking permission of the captain, the one that watches everyone help load the tanks on the boat but thinks it is beneath him or her to assist. The one that expects to be babysat, and not be a good dive buddy to others.
One must also be very careful, however, to not confuse a sense of entitlement, or laziness, with an individual who prefers to NOT share that s/he has an unseen handicap. You can tell that if the person is helpful in other ways. For example, with one disc gone and the other only pretending to be there, carrying tanks is not in my solution set. Therefore, I put together gear while my husband hefts tanks.
PS -- being a good tipper goes a long way, too!
I'm sure we've all seen them -- the one that carries the lightest things, and demonstrates an attitude of "you don't expect me to carry that, do you?" You know, the one that boards the boat without asking permission of the captain, the one that watches everyone help load the tanks on the boat but thinks it is beneath him or her to assist. The one that expects to be babysat, and not be a good dive buddy to others.
One must also be very careful, however, to not confuse a sense of entitlement, or laziness, with an individual who prefers to NOT share that s/he has an unseen handicap. You can tell that if the person is helpful in other ways. For example, with one disc gone and the other only pretending to be there, carrying tanks is not in my solution set. Therefore, I put together gear while my husband hefts tanks.
PS -- being a good tipper goes a long way, too!
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SCUBASailor
Contributor
Being a brand new diver, I appreciate the advice of long-timers, but I definitely don't want anybody setting up my gear for me. My son and I went out on our first "real" dive two weeks ago, with a friend who's got years of experience. It was also our first platform dive. We only asked him to lead us down about half way (40 feet or so), then once we had our sea legs, he could go about his spearfishing. Well, we didn't even need him to take us down to 40. As soon as we hit the water, we felt great, so he went about his business. We had a fantastic dive at 80'. It was great of him to say commit to staying with us, but I think he knew that we wouldn't hamstring him. I think he's a very good mentor, offering assistance if we need it, but by no means babysitting us.
My son and I are doing a novice dive at three barges in Pensacola this weekend. (This will be dives 8 and 9 for us.) Just to be cautious, I am paying for a DM. If he's going to babysit us, rather than just guide us during the dive, I 'd rather cancel his services. What do you think? Will a Florida DM treat us as new but competent divers, or as helpless newbies?
My son and I are doing a novice dive at three barges in Pensacola this weekend. (This will be dives 8 and 9 for us.) Just to be cautious, I am paying for a DM. If he's going to babysit us, rather than just guide us during the dive, I 'd rather cancel his services. What do you think? Will a Florida DM treat us as new but competent divers, or as helpless newbies?
Our one experience in FL was Key Largo, and there weren't any baby sitters. (Except one hired specifically for a 10 and 12 yr old, doing the Discover thing, which was a blast for them!)
Captain and DM did the site review, helped any one who asked for set up help, and then did the entry and exit assistance's.
If you are hiring the DM then you should discuss everything ahead of time. It's nice to have a local guide you the first time you visit a site, to orient you, and help you avoid missing stuff. If you don't require assistance setting up or constant oversight (or if you did, for whatever reason) it is good to settle this ahead of the actual dive. Avoids misunderstandings.
Captain and DM did the site review, helped any one who asked for set up help, and then did the entry and exit assistance's.
If you are hiring the DM then you should discuss everything ahead of time. It's nice to have a local guide you the first time you visit a site, to orient you, and help you avoid missing stuff. If you don't require assistance setting up or constant oversight (or if you did, for whatever reason) it is good to settle this ahead of the actual dive. Avoids misunderstandings.
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