You GOTTA have insurance

[chillyinCanada]

It's much easier to fool someone than convince them that they have been fooled.

 

[Midwesterndvr]

And there you have the difference - I am alright, i.e. I perceive I pay less for my health care and I really don’t care about those who don’t have or can’t get insurance as they don’t have a job that gets them healthcare or preconditions that don’t allow them to get insurance ... etc. vs I believe healthcare for all is worth those who have a bit more, paying a bit more every year. No judgement - they are just very different mindsets and societies with costs and benefits both ways. And as it is by and large the golden rule in the US (those with the gold makes the rules) I don’t see that mindset changing.

PS every study I have ever read says that the total cost of health care on a per capita basis is significantly higher in the US than in Canada with worse overall outcomes - infant mortality, expected lifespan, etc. Maybe we get other things for our taxes.

He doesn’t “ perceive” he pays less for healthcare. He DOES pay less for heath care. This is also not a case of people not caring about others,I’m not sure of this but I’ll guess the US ranks higher on charitable giving then Canada?

 

[Darnold9999]

He doesn’t “ perceive” he pays less for healthcare. He DOES pay less for heath care. This is also not a case of people not caring about others,I’m not sure of this but I’ll guess the US ranks higher on charitable giving then Canada?

Nope, I pay nothing for health care. He perceives my possibly larger tax bill as being entirely for health care and therefore he “pays less for health care” because he pays less taxes. (Not even sure that is true - as comparing US and Canada taxes is apples and oranges but that is a whole other discussion). Every independent study finds that overall we pay less on a per capita basis for far better overall outcomes. Yes the very very rich get better care in a private system - however that comes with a cost to everyone else.

On the not caring about others perhaps I said it poorly. As far as I can tell the US is all about the individual and their rights while we are a little more about the collective well being of society and less about individual rights. Health care is just one dimension of this difference, there are many others. Again no judgement, each choice has benefits and costs. One of the benefits (as we see it) is health care that is distributed by an individual’s need rather than their wealth.

 

[Midwesterndvr]

The wealthy having better healthcare doesn’t mean the less wealthy won’t have access to the system. I think we should trust capitalism as we do in most other things. I believe the free market will find a way to serve people at all income levels, better then a governmental system. Which I haven’t found one example in this country of a government run system that gives better service at a lower cost.

 

[Storker]

He perceives my possibly larger tax bill as being entirely for health care and therefore he “pays less for health care” because he pays less taxes.

My taxes are split between general tax (national and community, progressive rate on net income) and health/Social Security tax (8.2% on gross income for employees, 5.1% for pensioners and 11.4% for personal businesses that don't pay employee tax). I know exactly what I pay for my "health insurance" - plus my Social Security savings - and from what I read in this thread I'd have to be among the top 10 percentile - or better - to have to pay more in actual dollars, Euros or whatever currency you like than what I've seen that some of the participants in this thread have to pay.

And if I have to pay more for my health services, I can afford it. More than those who pay less can afford to pay what they're paying. I may not have as much to spend on toys, but on the other hand I don't have to save for my kids' tuition at college. Because I've already paid for that through my taxes. As I have for fire services, road construction, police, kindergartens, schools etc. Right now I pay about 30% of my income in taxes, and for that don't have to worry about health insurance, health service paperwork, in- or out-circuit treatment costs, college savings, or any other of that crap.

Just being able to avoid all that crap is worth a lot to me.

 

[Gareth J]

The wealthy having better healthcare doesn’t mean the less wealthy won’t have access to the system. I think we should trust capitalism as we do in most other things. I believe the free market will find a way to serve people at all income levels, better then a governmental system. Which I haven’t found one example in this country of a government run system that gives better service at a lower cost.

Interesting view, by every measure, the USA has the most expensive, and most inefficient medical sector in the world. The only country that comes close, and they are 30% more efficient than the USA is France. You really are a world leader if you can beat the french at bureaucracy!

 

[Darnold9999]

The wealthy having better healthcare doesn’t mean the less wealthy won’t have access to the system. I think we should trust capitalism as we do in most other things. I believe the free market will find a way to serve people at all income levels, better then a governmental system. Which I haven’t found one example in this country of a government run system that gives better service at a lower cost.

The current system in the US has roughly 30 - 40 million people with no health insurance at all (depends on what source you look at what that number is). That is approximately one out of every ten people that rely on their own good health or charity of some kind. Not sure capitalism is doing a good job on this one at the moment. I look forward to seeing a system of health care provided by capitalism that actually serves all people at all income levels. I actually believe it might be possible and don't think the system we have is particularly wonderful, so watch what happens south of me with interest.

We deal with emergency care extremely well, everyone gets really good emergency care. The problem with the current system is in rationing resources. How do you choose what to spend limited resources on? The capitalist system lets the market do it. You need a hip replacement at 95 and can pay for it you get it, if you have no $ you don't. Here that choice is not made by the market so if you need a hip replacement at 95 the system says that would be a waste of resources better spent on other priorities so you go on a waiting list and likely die still needing a hip replacement. Better?? Who knows.

 

[lexvil]

The wealthy having better healthcare doesn’t mean the less wealthy won’t have access to the system. I think we should trust capitalism as we do in most other things. I believe the free market will find a way to serve people at all income levels, better then a governmental system. Which I haven’t found one example in this country of a government run system that gives better service at a lower cost.

Medicare, road building, military, fire protection all done better and cheaper than private versions, capitalism is never the low cost option.

 

[Storker]

capitalism is never the low cost option.

Allow me to disagree. Sometimes it's the low cost option. Sometimes, the low cost option is the best option, sometimes it most definitely isn't.

One size doesn't fit all.

 

[lexvil]

Allow me to disagree. Sometimes it's the low cost option. Sometimes, the low cost option is the best option, sometimes it most definitely isn't.

One size doesn't fit all.

You may disagree, after only a capitalist could have a Tesla fly past Mars.