Would you stay away from a dive shop that had an accident?

[rmssetc]

I do virtually no pre-drive checks on my car. Most of the time I ignore the check engine light on the dash. I try to remember to check the oil, tire pressure and the tread conditions on my car, but it is at best sporadic. By your metric The airlines, which keep meticulous service records, require hours and hours of simulations and training for air crews and retire airframes after a certain number of flight hours should be far more dangerous than driving.

But it's not. Driving is far more dangerous.

Do you define "dangerous" as just the number of incidents-per-activity (ie., accidents per mile traveled), or do you include a measure of severity?

Meticulous maintenance and training and operation lower the incident rate (in traveler/miles, number of trips) in commercial flying below the incident rate in driving. However, about 25% of commercial airline accidents result in fatalities (U.S. general aviation: fatal and non-fatal accidents | Statista), compared to automobile accidents, with about a 2% accident fatality rate (U.S.: number of road accidents per one million inhabitants 2013-2028 | Statista, U.S.: number of road traffic fatalities per one million inhabitants 2013-2028 | Statista).

Diving is safe because divers make it safe.

Diving is inherently dangerous.

Diving is safer per dive compared to, say, skiiing, because industry and diver practices contribute to a relatively low number of accidents, but the severity of incidents is much higher (annual deaths/diver) due to the intrinsic nature of the activity.

No type of equipment, training, maintenance, or practices can make diving or flying inherently safe -- they both take place in environments that require life-support equipment -- but they can be made safer than expected in comparison to other activities.

 

[CT-Rich]

Do you define "dangerous" as just the number of incidents-per-activity (ie., accidents per mile traveled), or do you include a measure of severity?

Meticulous maintenance and training and operation lower the incident rate (in traveler/miles, number of trips) in commercial flying below the incident rate in driving. However, about 25% of commercial airline accidents result in fatalities (U.S. general aviation: fatal and non-fatal accidents | Statista), compared to automobile accidents, with about a 2% accident fatality rate (U.S.: number of road accidents per one million inhabitants 2013-2028 | Statista, U.S.: number of road traffic fatalities per one million inhabitants 2013-2028 | Statista).

Diving is inherently dangerous.

Diving is safer per dive compared to, say, skiiing, because industry and diver practices contribute to a relatively low number of accidents, but the severity of incidents is much higher (annual deaths/diver) due to the intrinsic nature of the activity.

No type of equipment, training, maintenance, or practices can make diving or flying inherently safe -- they both take place in environments that require life-support equipment -- but they can be made safer than expected in comparison to other activities.

There is no such thing as completely safe outdoor adventure sport. If you jump out of an airplane, you will almost certainly die. An unprotected body impacts the ground at a speed of 130 mph. Most people will drown if they try to swim 80' underwater. Breathing underwater is almost certain death even at a few inches. Diving is not some sort of insane death trap, no more and probably even less that a lot or even most "extreme" sports. It is an activity that can be enjoyed well into retirement.

Plenty of people enjoy diving well into their late 70s. Characterizing it in a basic forum as some sort of death defying act I think can put people off of it unnecessarily. I realize you can make it much more challenging than a nice Sunday bumble around the local reef, just as you can make hiking much more challenging by going into remote areas or climbing tall peaks. But this is a basic forum. The number of people that DIE while scuba diving is not zero, but it is pretty safe, for an outdoor adventure activity. It does require a certain amount of training and equipment needs to be maintained and best practices need to be followed. Those are true for boating, mountaineering or hang gliding.

 

[boulderjohn]

I concur with everything you said... I will say that when I went through the PADI IDC, I was taught to do a diagonal CESA with an ascent to the surface. It isn't great, but it's better than horizontal to be certain...

It is a little better, but you will have to have a pool that makes it possible.

 

[buddhasummer]

No spinning for me at all, just you.

After all mostly done in pairs for no reason, do pre checks on all gear for no reason, routine service of all gear for no reason. But go on with your false beliefs. Based on some of your other post I expect to hear about you in the accidents thread at some point.

 

[MacDuyver]

Look what forum you are on: "Basic Scuba". Those other things require extra training and equipment.

Is hiking up your local hill high risk because people die climbing Mount Everest?

No, you don’t run out of air and die, or turn your blood into nitrogen foam from walking wrong. Those aren’t risks inherent to advanced dives either, there’s just a better chance of them happening.

As for overall risk, I’ll nerd out here and drop a tool the DOD made. I usually want to blow my ******* head off when we talk about the risk assessment matrix at work bc they want it done for things like going to the range to shoot rifles or go on a ruck march (your example of waking up a hill… but with a 60lb backpack, and most of it is on a road with active vehicle traffic), both of which are safer than diving (static rifle ranges are considered overall Low Risk by the Army, as is a ruckmarch on an active road)

The percentage of hazards that can result in death in diving is pretty high. There are WAY more opportunities to die scuba diving than going to the range to shoot rifles. We mitigate those down significantly through use of dive buddies, equipment checks and services, NDLs, safety stops, backup air sources, computers that track ascent rate NDL and nitrogen levels, residual nitrogen tables, specialized gas mixtures, NITROX Analysis and MOD planning, signaling devices, thermal protection, proper weighting, etc.

These types of mitigations are what makes me refer to modern diving “high stakes but generally safe/moderate risk.” This is because the overall risk outcome would have many instances of “Catastrophic” outcomes, however the frequency would be Seldom or Unlikely. If things go too seriously wrong, you’re guaranteed to die. No matter the depth. The mitigations we put in place can’t remove the risks since we’re still ******* around under the ocean, but they can significantly reduce the chances that a catastrophic event occurs.

For context, the Army considers both scuba diving and parachuting out of airplanes to be “Medium” risks overall because of the low frequency of significant accidents in an inherently dangerous activity.

 

[formernuke]

For context, the Army considers both scuba diving and parachuting out of airplanes to be “Medium” risks overall because of the low frequency of significant accidents in an inherently dangerous activity.

Both activities have large amounts to mitigation to make it so.

 

[MacDuyver]

Both activities have large amounts to mitigation to make it so.

TONS of mitigations.

We're talking decades of improvements and mitigations. Death rates reflect as well. Do people die in both activities? Most definitely. Not at the rate they used to though. Do people die at a higher rate in those activities than other more conventional low risk pursuits? Yes.

This is why we do what we do before during and after dives.

 

[gordonscuba]

A shop could have had an accident years ago, and yet a particular DM or instructor who works there could be a very safe diver. They may work there because they are trying to be part of the solution and make things better. I would evaluate each dive you are considering doing, based on the circumstances of the dive and the people involved on the day. At the site you are considering diving, on the day you are considering diving that site, does the dive leader have a strong commitment to safety for themselves and for the team? Are the conditions such that the site is safe to dive? Is everyone well-rested, healthy and having the proper equipment? Is the dive plan sensible and within everyone's training? What is the emergency plan? Etc.

 

[jordaof]

The only accident that occurred with my diving shop, was on a dive baptism with a tourist, a lung barotrauma, the person was instructed about the safety measures clearly, at 6 meters depth she went like a torpedo to the surface with her regulator off, she was a large woman and the instructor was a small stature female, that was unable to stick the regulator on her mouth and to calm the woman, the woman even violently smashed the mask of the instructor and reg. As soon as she arrived at the surface she started bleeding from nose and mouth, she went directedly to the hospital and recovered with minor issues fortunately.

When I took my motorcycle license on my driving school a student was killed on an accident with an head on collision against a car, the student was warned that he was speeding to much and was asked to slow down, he didn't comply, entered like a maniac on a bend, the motorcycle invaded the opposite lane and the crash occurred...so.. yeah.. accidents do occur, I took my motorcycle license and car license on that school and never ever had an issue, and those were good professionals.

Environment like a road with oncoming traffic as aquatic environment have inherent risks that people need to understand and respect, if not...

 

[apedai]

Hi guys I’m back.
According to social media, a person said the 2 victims are friends and buddies, they are running out gas during drift diving, the guide let them surface first and leading rest diver complate this dive. the body's cylider is empty.(Not confirmed)
Same type accident happened in hongkong at oct 21, a student missing after surfaced alone（instructor permitted）

潛水學員火石洲失蹤 助搜者：能見度低 - 20231022 - 港聞

【明報專訊】28歲男子昨在西貢火石洲附近海域上潛水課堂期間失蹤，至昨晚仍未尋回。曾協助搜救事主的潛水員稱，當時水底能見度只有約30厘米，算「大湧大流」。

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