Why the Prejudice about DIR or GUE

[grazie42]

Originally Posted by uspap
I have a quesstion. Would you rather dive a quarry with a DIR diver or the Monterey California canyon with a SAFE NAUI or PADI diver who has been there dozens of times.

I´ve never been in a quarry so that alone would have things tipping towards the DIR-diver, besides, I might learn something as well...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

okey sorry for going off topic (Like that's ever happened before)

I would rather stick with a DIR diver... I know we are on the same page when it comes to skills and procedures. Nothing against a "SAFE NAUI or PADI" diver but I think that because My DIR buddy and I share the same mindset and team focus we can enjoy the dive more.

It's a bit difficult to explain but with a well put together team the usual new buddy anxiety isn't there... thru good passive and active communication and situational awareness you are put to ease a lot faster.

Well I see it a bit differently ...

If the DIR diver is also a DICK diver, then I don't want to dive with him regardless of his skill level.

If the NAUI or PADI diver has put enough thought into what he or she is doing to be regarded as a safe diver, then chances are pretty high that they've paid attention to their training and follow the protocols. It also tells me that person is open to learning something new.

You can teach someone better skills ... but attitude comes with the diver, and is not specific to any training agency.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tedtim]

You can teach someone better skills ... but attitude comes with the diver, and is not specific to any training agency.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

! ! !

and my first introduction to a DIR type included comments from him such as
"those of us with the advanced skills"
"I have more dives on my drysuit than the two of you have together"
"my guys on the boat"

first impressions are difficult to change.

Well stated Bob.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

! ! !

and my first introduction to a DIR type included comments from him such as
"those of us with the advanced skills"
"I have more dives on my drysuit than the two of you have together"
"my guys on the boat"

first impressions are difficult to change.

Well stated Bob.

Yeah, I've met a few of those types along the way too ... fortunately, they're a tiny (but vocal) minority. They're usually fresh out of DIR-F and looking for ways to justify their "provisional" status.

Those with the advanced skills don't advertise ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

Lamont]I see where you're coming from. I'm not totally sure I agree. Since I route the backup hose under the LP inflator if the backup comes off the bungee it will be easy to grab around my neck and up and the first thing I hit will be the hose (and confession time: i did this once when after not doing a proper pre-dive check I found that my necklace wasn't on -- I didn't do it in the heat of an OOA, but the reg was easy to grab).

Your &#8220;accident&#8221; points up just the kind of unexpected that I was referring to: can&#8217;t happen but does happen and the next thing you know, there you are blindly repeating a procedure in a semi-panicked state that has no hope of ever extracting you from the problem. I&#8217;d hate to die wondering what went wrong (well &#8230; I rather not die even knowing<G>).

I may have to rethink a bit paying more attention to routing and what it accomplishes, but the routing thing (and all the &#8220;attaching/clipping/tying&#8221; that are part of a DIR rig create an awful lot of closed loops.

I understand the rest of your post, but not this part. You say that you disagree that the bungie'd backup is a better choice, but don't say what you think is the better (or best) choice instead of the bungie'd backup. And the "relying on an auxiliary attachment (e.g. the bungee) to locate something that you&#8217;d need in an emergency" point, doesn't that apply to pretty much anything used to hold anything while diving, like the octo-holders, etc? Are you trying to say that all choices are the same, since they all rely on some external attachment, or are you saying that there is no point in securing the second stage since the only way to be 100% sure is to grab it at the source and follow it down? It seems that this part of your post is more against using an arm sweep than it is against using a bungie'd backup.

I&#8217;m not arguing for one solution over another, but there is no doubt in my mind that the &#8220;arm sweep&#8221; is an insidious potential death trap. I don&#8217;t care for octo-holders, clips, pockets and all the other &#8220;attachment&#8221; systems. I also don&#8217;t see what use they are, save creating a false sense of security.

Remember, were starting from the assumption of surrendering the primary. I try to teach/show all the methods so they can choose the one that they feel is best. I even have a few spare-airs just to show students the deployment/gas supply problems with them. I try to objectively discuss the pros and cons. We go through buddy-breathing, standard octos, AIR-II, Air-Source, inflator attached second stages (conventional and side breather), pony (mounted and slung), and spare-air. I need to add a section on Hog rig, but I&#8217;ll have to dive it a bit more first.

That said, let me digress into what I personally think and do. I have as few attachments on my normal rig as few a possible &#8230; trying to minimize closed loops. When I dove a &#8220;standard&#8221; octo I placed it in the small of my back under my tank, and since I spend most of my dive horizontal, it usually stayed there through the dive. Occasionally I&#8217;d have to replace it, but not very often. If I needed it, I&#8217;d recover it by reaching up over my shoulder to the first stage as described earlier.

I experimented with the Air-II and it&#8217;s Air-Source cousins and found them all to be a bit clunky when it came to breathing and controlling the BC at the same time. I now use an inflator system that was made by MARES that permits a standard second stage to be attached to the distal end of the inflator. For that I use an Oceanic Omega II second stage. When I put the Omega II in my mouth the hoses are more than long enough to comfortably keep the regulator in my mouth and to turn my head. I have both a bottom dump and a right shoulder dump that I can use ir I need to. This does leave me with the closed loop that the inflator creates, but there appears to be no way around that.

I'll post a photo if when we get that capability back.

 

[Soggy]

If you can explain to me how a piece of 3/8" bungee cord firmly zip tied to the mouthpiece can just randomly and accidentally fall out, I'm all ears. I think the odds of you finding a realistic scenario where this can occur without notice of the diver fairly difficult to justify. My bungee is tight enough that I am constantly aware of the reg hanging in front of me. Your description is the epitome of solving a problem that just doesn't exist.

I do agree that using a detachable bungee system, like many do, where the mouthpiece is held in place by tension is a wicked bad idea and is just asking for that reg to come out at the worst possible time.

 

[Thalassamania]

If you can explain to me how a piece of 3/8" bungee cord firmly zip tied to the mouthpiece can just randomly and accidentally fall out, I'm all ears. I think the odds of you finding a realistic scenario where this can occur without notice of the diver fairly difficult to justify. My bungee is tight enough that I am constantly aware of the reg hanging in front of me. Your description is the epitome of solving a problem that just doesn't exist.

I do agree that using a detachable bungee system, like many do, where the mouthpiece is held in place by tension is a wicked bad idea and is just asking for that reg to come out at the worst possible time.

If you read Lamont’s post, there’s one example. If you’re happy with your solution, go for it. As I said:

Remember, were starting from the assumption of surrendering the primary. I try to teach/show all the methods so they can choose the one that they feel is best.

 

[Soggy]

It sounds to me like lamont has a detachable bungee. Is that correct? Mine is firmly zip-tied to the regulator body.

 

[Doubles]

I do agree that using a detachable bungee system, like many do, where the mouthpiece is held in place by tension is a wicked bad idea and is just asking for that reg to come out at the worst possible time.

I disagree, and only because of an incident in South Florida this past spring. A tech diver out on a boat had an issue which required the boat capt and dm to assist. The DM needed to ditch this divers gear and got it all free, except for the bungied octo which was pulling the diver who was in trouble and the dm down.

I don't have the details on the original problem, but I know the diver required a visit to the chamber.

I learned of this while out on the same boat when the capt and dm decided it was time to hold the "inquisition" with me about my bungied octo. Mine is not zip tied, but has a tight grip on the mouth piece, can be pulled free, its not going to fall out, it has to be pulled out.

This boat takes tech divers out on occassion and I could certainly see their new found concerns after the DM nearly became a victim himself when he could not free the diver of that octo.

There are reasons for/against the detachable bungie. One needs to weigh those reasons and make a choice.

Cheers

 

[Soggy]

I disagree, and only because of an incident in South Florida this past spring. A tech diver out on a boat had an issue which required the boat capt and dm to assist. The DM needed to ditch this divers gear and got it all free, except for the bungied octo which was pulling the diver who was in trouble and the dm down.

Without knowing the details of the incident, it's tough to comment on it, but it sounds like the DM didn't know how to handle technical gear.

That is optimizing for a freak situation rather than a more realistic scenario which is that you have a problem underwater and need to quickly switch to your backup reg. I'm sure we can all find incidents where something ridiculous happened that was a 1 in a million chance. That doesn't mean we should optimize our gear for that 1/1000000 shot unless you can solve that problem without creating others.

A loose bungee creates more problems than it solves.

This is all, of course, just my opinion, but I think a loose bungee is a *really* bad idea.