Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[stuartv]

Your choice. However, if I lose my method of measuring my tank pressure, I am going to end the dive. You may think differently and that is your decision. On a recreational dive, such as I do, I would surface and resolve the issue before diving again.

I would not fault you for that ONE BIT. I am completely onboard with "anyone can thumb a dive, at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all." I certainly want to feel like I have that option, so I completely support anyone else exercising the same option.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2015 at 04:20 PM ----------

If I was having the same problem all the time and the only common denominator is me... then i'd prolly check myself... just look at your last couple sentences

"Yet you've all forgotten more about diving that I'll ever know, so none of you are in touch enough with a newbie's point of view as to see why it doesn't make sense to the newbie. Therefore, the newbie who won't just take your word for it must be a contrary, argumentative butthead."

some of these guys are instructors who deal with newbie's on an everyday bases... but you say that non of them are in touch enough wiht a newbie's point of view... i beg to differ... i'm sure many other newbie's beg to differ as well...


...i haven't seen you reusing to accept advice because you don't understand... on the contrary... you understand... you just don't agree because it's not what you want to hear... and i think that's the type of person RJP was alluding to...

I gave an example - the buoyancy discussion. Do you really think I understood and was just being contrary? I think saying "you don't agree because it's not what you want to hear" is a pretty easy way to just dismiss someone's questions without answering them. If I had tried to argue that I was confident I could tie off a wreck reel while holding my depth within +/- 1 foot, I think you're statement would be fair. But, I never said anything like that because I did not understand what "buoyancy is hard" really meant. And nobody was explaining it. Other than with patronizing statements like "when you get more experience, you'll understand." Well, I'll at least give them credit for that part being true!

 

[olphart]

Ya just gotta ask yourself, "What would Mike Nelson do?"

 

[phoenix31tt]

I would not fault you for that ONE BIT. I am completely onboard with "anyone can thumb a dive, at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all." I certainly want to feel like I have that option, so I completely support anyone else exercising the same option.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2015 at 04:20 PM ----------




I gave an example - the buoyancy discussion. Do you really think I understood and was just being contrary? I think saying "you don't agree because it's not what you want to hear" is a pretty easy way to just dismiss someone's questions without answering them. If I had tried to argue that I was confident I could tie off a wreck reel while holding my depth within +/- 1 foot, I think you're statement would be fair. But, I never said anything like that because I did not understand what "buoyancy is hard" really meant. And nobody was explaining it. Other than with patronizing statements like "when you get more experience, you'll understand." Well, I'll at least give them credit for that part being true!

i wasn't even talking about your buoyancy comments... more around the advice you acknowledged you did not take... did you understand the advice... yes... did you take it... no... why not? Because you didn't want to... for whatever reason it's not the advice you wanted to hear

but more importantly... if this happens all the time and it happens to you... don't you think maybe you should look at yourself instead of saying the experts don't know how to teach?

 

[doctormike]

however, from the ScubaBoard Terms of Service at: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

Right, I wasn't suggesting it. I was saying that if you decide to behave in a deceitful manner (by posting from multiple accounts or faking your dive data), then that affects how you are perceived by the community.

There is no reasonable way that the system can prevent a determined user from using a sock puppet, BTW, although that's not the point. The point is that the community is based on trust.

 

[DaleC]

As someone who dives without an SPG on a regular basis (J valve) I think there is a big difference between intentionally doing so and doing so because of a failure during a dive.

In the first case, having no SPG is the last of a series of strategies I employ to ensure I can complete the dive safely. There is also a conservative dive profle to consider, planning to do the deeper part first and end in the shallows when there is a greater chance of being LOA, using a J valve so I have a small reserve and being practiced in the skill of CESAing. All those things go along with diving without an SPG.

In the second case, and part of what I was debating pages ago, the AIC diver may tend not employ any of those strategies, choosing instead to ride the most aggressive profile the computer offers to "maximize" their dive, and be quite unprepared to dive sans tank pressure knowledge for an extended period should that occur.

Of course I accept that divers can dive conservatively using an AIC, but the technology does lend itself to the type of diver who wants to squeeze every last drop of [-]air[/-] nitrox out of the tank, every dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

On a recent dive, we noted that my buddy was going through his air much, much faster than we would have expected based on his established SAC rate. We had more than enough gas for that part of the dive so there was no worry, but he was certainly going through gas faster than normal.

Our dive included decompression stops, and when we switched to our decompression gas, his breathing rate continued. Looking back at it from the advantage of time, we still don't know have a hint of an explanation for it. It was a nice, calm dive, and he was not at all excited about anything. We had both started with the same amount of deco gas, and as I saw his gauge creeping toward the red zone, I saw that I still had oodles of gas. I switched to back gas and had him use my deco gas until his deco was done. Then I had him switch to his back gas and wait with me while I went back to the deco gas and finished up.

Going into the dive, we both had similar SAC rates, yet when we were done, I still had plenty of deco gas left, even after having him use it for a while. He was about empty. If he had done the dive without an SPG because he knew from his SAC rate that he had plenty of gas, he would have gone OOA suddenly and unexpectedly during deco, and we would have been doing a surprise emergency air share. If we had not been side by side, he would have been shooting to the surface for air while still owing deco time.

 

[dmaziuk]

Of course I accept that divers can dive conservatively using an AIC, but the technology does lend itself to the type of diver who wants to squeeze every last drop of [-]air[/-] nitrox out of the tank, every dive.

You have to agree though that your argument for "why people dislike ai dcs" is "I dislike the divers wearing them because I believe most of them shouldn't be allowed to dive in the first place". (Which is a perfectly valid sentiment, though I suspect its relationship to ai computers is casual, not causal.)

 

[DaleC]

I like the casual causal play but I don't think that poorly of most divers. I would be even more concerned about a diver taking up a camera. Those things can really hurt you. One was the cause of my only unintentional OOA at depth.

I don't dislike AI's other than the price for what it offers (personal only).
I have a concern about them but then again, I could have a concern about a lot of things. If a friend of mine wanted to buy one and could afford it I would say go ahead, but watch out for letting it do all the thinking. That's it.

 

[scubadada]

A discouraging thread, many narrow minded individuals, you use the information available to you for what it's worth. ATR is perfectly accurate for a single diver, easy to adjust for other circumstances. Gas remaining and NDL is no different than any other dive computer/SPG

 

[RJP]

What exactly is the difference between not understanding what is being conveyed and questioning (I won't say arguing) from a position of ignorance?

Well, it's hard to respond to you since you've trimmed my post to suit your response. Here's the entirety of what I said...

However, when a person argues for a contrary position from a position of ignorance/naivete - or more commonly simply rejects the offered advice out of hand because it isn't what they wanted to hear - there's not much that the "teacher" can do to help that person.

I'll be more direct this time. You tend to argue... not question. Specifically, you tend to "argue for a contrary position from ignorance/naivete" or "simply reject offered advice out of hand because it isn't what you want to hear."

Here's how it usually goes.

Step 1: You post something asking "Should I do X... or Y?"

Step 2: Several experienced people will reply, fairly succinctly, saying "You should do X because of thus and such reason."

Step 3: Your response to them never says "I don't understand what you mean by that" but rather your response is almost always "Well, I don't agree with you. I want to do Y!" And that argument is most often from a position of ignorance/naivete... as is abundantly evident by the fact that your responses then tend to go on and on (and on) with paragraphs and paragraphs of irrelevant and/or incorrect information and assumptions on your part.

Step 4: Experienced people (at least those with the morbid curiosity/interest in sparring with you) will point out the innacurate/irrelevant information in your response... and direct you back to choice "X"

Step 5: You then complain (over the course of a thousand words in a half-dozen paragraphs) that the experienced people who directed you back to choice "X" are picking on you, while recapitulating your position that you want to pursue "choice Y" for all the flawed reasons you used to support that choice in the first place.

If you really "don't understand X" come out and say that. Don't argue for a contrary position when you - now admittedly - don't know what you're talking about.