Why isn't the Freedom Plate DIR compliant?

[Akimbo]

Geoff:

Yes, a lot of people do respond favorably when introduced to wings by individuals like us. I think the bigger point is the dive shops, training agencies, and magazines largely don't acknowledge their existence. Another irony is there are a lot of new "back inflate" BCDs being introduced right now... which are wings with extra crap sewn to them. There was a huge anti-wing debate in the early 1980s claiming they were dangerous and the floated you face down. The poodle jackets domination grew while wings became lost in the din.

They may well have disappeared entirely from the market had wreck and cave divers not kept them alive in the market place. Relatively speaking, the BP/W is still a lot more of a home-brew/DIY process than poodle jackets.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'm sorry, but from my experience with most of my dive buddies, nothing could be further from the truth. There are many variations on BP/W harness configurations, e.g., DiveRite's Transplate setup that is similar to a mountaineer backpack, but are still BP/W based. My wife tried several BCs over the years after we got certified, and until she used the Transplate harness, nothing fit her properly. Our BP/W setups have normal length (not long) secondary hoses, pull dump valve on the inflator hose, multiple quick release buckles, integrated weight pockets on the waist strap, and Atomic SS1 inflator instead of a conventional octo. Just about everything counter to DIR philosophy, but very, very nice for recreational diving. Many friends who have tried my setup walked into my LDS and ordered the same.

If anything, the benefits of BP/W setup, whether DIR or not, are streamlined configuration, nearly infinite adjustability and customization, simplicity (or as much complexity as you want), stability, better weight balance, comfort (both for wearing and diving), ease of achieving very good trim in the water, and great fit. If you look at the ScubaPro or Apeks "high end" harnesses, it's almost hard to tell it's a BP/W underneath with all the stitching and what not. I have no intention of switching to a more DIR-oriented configuration at this point, but will absolutely never go back to a "conventional" BC. Outside of scuba message boards, relatively few recreational divers care about DIR, but do want something functional to dive in, which in my mind is where a BP/W configuration excels over the alternatives

OK, so maybe I'm wrong about *most* people using BP/W having some resemblance to DIR. Forget about how they are rigged for a moment.
I still maintain that if it wasn't for the DIR movement on the west coast led by MHK and crew that very few people would even know what a BP/W is regardless of how they are set up.
I know people set them up with comfort harnesses w/ plastic clips, Air2's, tank bangers, retracters, scum balls, dingly bobs, whatever, that's fine, I'm talking about the actual use of the plate and wing.
It sure wouldn't have become as popular as it is from the other tech community of the day. Most of them were on the east coast and in their own world. GUE is the first agency that actually mainstreamed the use of BP/W for all diving not just tech.

---------- Post added October 28th, 2013 at 11:19 PM ----------

GUE has distanced themselves from the term "DIR" after the schism between GUE and UTD. GUE diving is clearly what GUE says it is; DIR diving is much more ill-defined and subject to argument.

I don't presume to answer for UTD, NAUI-Tech or anybody else. I do know something about GUE's approach to things and why they do what they do.

Eric, I totally empathize with you. One of my goals in life is to try to expand the reach of GUE diving more into the dedicated single-tank recreational diver, because I think many of the ideas GUE teaches would result in better diving experiences for people in general. Your plate is perfect for that purpose . . . but MY view of what I'd like to see happen is not the vision that GUE has, which is to streamline the process for the diver who might not even have thought about technical or cave diving, but when he does, finds it a seamless transition. Gear which is optimized for single-tank, recreational diving just doesn't fit in that philosophy. We have found that even with the Deep Sea Supply plates, which we own and like; the shallow bend Tobin has created to make single tank diving better can cause issues with rental doubles, if the bolts aren't long enough. At least the plates WILL work for doubles, if you can find the right bolts; your plate simply won't work for them at all, and that just doesn't fit with the concept of scaling.

You built the plate for a reason, and it's a really good reason, and probably applicable for an awful lot of the people who are thinking about backplate setups here on ScubaBoard. I think you would be better served to figure out how to market to those people, rather than trying to figure out how to fit your plate into a diving philosophy where it just doesn't fit very well.

I have to gently challenge the assumption that going from using the Freedom Plate with singles into another plate using doubles would not be a seamless transition.
The reason being is that the harness and all the positioning of the hardware is exactly the same. In fact, because the tank fits so well to your body the configuration actually works better.
If someone was to transition to doubles, yes, they would need another plate and may as well have a harness on it (kind of a PITA to try and move harnesses around) the wing will be different, but it wouldn't be so different that it would throw anybody off. In fact, once you try the Freedom Plate the other plates seem a little flat and uncomfortable. I have a good friend in Pasadena who is GUE trianed who uses my plate. He ruined his wing so tried to go back to using his H plate with a Pioneer wing and a STA and couldn't do it. He had to break down and get another donut wing so he could get back in my plate.

I just think the all or nothing approach is a little limiting in a way just like people see my product as limiting. But there is a large group of people (way bigger than cave or wreck in doubles) who just like to enjoy recreational diving in a wetsuit and a single tank. I don't see why they can't be just as GUE as anybody else if that's where they are happy being and have no plans to move further.
I can see you're point about using the same plate all the way through, but I think GUE is also limiting themelves with this approach. They should loosen up a bit and look at some other options as well. How long do they plan to stay frozen?

But we'll see, I have an Email in to the man himself so we'll see what he says.

 

[undrwater]

Whenever I setup my Freedom Plate, divers wander over and check out my rig and salivate. It's sexy, simple, and sweet. Most of us that dive regularly are going to be single tank divers for life. These divers ask me "where'd you get that?" How can I answer them? Oh...from Eric!

IMO, you need a package deal with the plate, harness, and wing all set up and pretty on some website to get people excited. For most people, it's too much work to find and thread the webbing, figure out which wing will work with the plate (anyone know if the Hollis "S" series does?), and get all the doodads set up.

I attended a GUE / DIR orientation with MHK a while ago, and, as I remember, when the question of equipment came up, his two requirements were long hose and paddle fins. Whatever source of buoyancy management you used was fine as long as it didn't hamper the long hose. He also mentioned that you could not get a tech pass without a standard BP/W.

I love the Freedom Plate, and if you are continuing to manufacturer it (when I spoke with you last, you were quitting or taking a hiatus), I will be the Freedom Plate Ambassador.

 

[RJP]

But there still is a good chunk of people who are getting into BP/W who look to you guys (DIR) to see what you use and why. So for me to break into the DIR market would be huge, because with that endorsement it would mean that it could be used anywhere for anything by anybody.

Of course that's just silly. I couldn't use it with doubles, or for side mount, or with any of my halcyon wings, so there goes your theory. (that last one will be a killer from a GUE endorsement standpoint, don't you think?

As a marketer, I'll give an important piece of advice... Always keep in mind that not everyone is your customer.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I love my Freedom Plate so much that I cut the slots in my Halcyon wing to make it fit.

 

[halocline]

At least the plates WILL work for doubles, if you can find the right bolts; your plate simply won't work for them at all, and that just doesn't fit with the concept of scaling.

Sort of following that logic, would GUE recommend wings that are designed to be usable for singles and doubles? We all know how those work. It makes perfect sense to me to have separate plates for single and double tank use, just like we do with wings. And an extra plate is substantially less costly than an extra wing. I believe the issue here is simply one of product availability; Eric's is one of the first modern plates to be designed for single tanks, while there have been separate single and double tank wings around for quite a while.

I don't know too much about the origins of GUE, but I do understand that the basic philosophy, particularly with regards to gear configuration, was heavily influenced by hogarthian principles. The essence of hogarthian philosophy was to use just the right gear, nothing extra, for the particular dive environment. The freedom plate fits that philosophy quite well.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Whenever I setup my Freedom Plate, divers wander over and check out my rig and salivate. It's sexy, simple, and sweet. Most of us that dive regularly are going to be single tank divers for life. These divers ask me "where'd you get that?" How can I answer them? Oh...from Eric!

IMO, you need a package deal with the plate, harness, and wing all set up and pretty on some website to get people excited. For most people, it's too much work to find and thread the webbing, figure out which wing will work with the plate (anyone know if the Hollis "S" series does?), and get all the doodads set up.

I attended a GUE / DIR orientation with MHK a while ago, and, as I remember, when the question of equipment came up, his two requirements were long hose and paddle fins. Whatever source of buoyancy management you used was fine as long as it didn't hamper the long hose. He also mentioned that you could not get a tech pass without a standard BP/W.

I love the Freedom Plate, and if you are continuing to manufacturer it (when I spoke with you last, you were quitting or taking a hiatus), I will be the Freedom Plate Ambassador.

The HOG 32 lb wing fits the plate like it was made for it. I love mine. My other plates are now reserved for students and doubles only. If I'm diving single tank I'm using my freedom contour, HOG wing, and basic harness. Mine has a red one. As for finding webbing I can get all you want in black, red, blue, green, yellow, and pink. And supply the hardware.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I applaud you for your efforts. You have what appears to be a beautiful product. Until this thread I had never heard of them. I am a long time BPW/DIR user, and very recent GUE certified diver.
My wife is planning on taking SCUBA lessons soon as well. I would have absolutely no problem at all putting her in one of your back plates. With her size being 5'3" and 100 pounds with a very narrow shoulders I think your plate would work perfect for her. GIR Rec 1 would be the limit of her training, and I feel this plate would be in the standard for that.
So simply making this thread and bring attention to your product has quite possibly done some of what you wanted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Thank you!

Let me know if you want to explore this option further.
A small size would be perfect for her.
You can pm me here.

Thanks

 

[milbournosphere]

Eric, there are also several GUE/DIR clubs down here in San Diego, as well as shops who cater to those types of divers. Non PADI shops here usually have an instructor teaching in a BP/W setup, and recommend a similar setup to their students. I might suggest getting a table at the Long Beach show next year. DSS, HOG, and many other smaller vendors usually have booths setup there, and there's plenty of foot traffic from the diving community down here in SoCal. Getting the word out to divers enthusiastic enough to go to a convention certainly couldn't hurt sales.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Whenever I setup my Freedom Plate, divers wander over and check out my rig and salivate. It's sexy, simple, and sweet. Most of us that dive regularly are going to be single tank divers for life. These divers ask me "where'd you get that?" How can I answer them? Oh...from Eric!

IMO, you need a package deal with the plate, harness, and wing all set up and pretty on some website to get people excited. For most people, it's too much work to find and thread the webbing, figure out which wing will work with the plate (anyone know if the Hollis "S" series does?), and get all the doodads set up.

I attended a GUE / DIR orientation with MHK a while ago, and, as I remember, when the question of equipment came up, his two requirements were long hose and paddle fins. Whatever source of buoyancy management you used was fine as long as it didn't hamper the long hose. He also mentioned that you could not get a tech pass without a standard BP/W.

I love the Freedom Plate, and if you are continuing to manufacturer it (when I spoke with you last, you were quitting or taking a hiatus), I will be the Freedom Plate Ambassador.

I'm still making them.
I'm still in the market testing phase to see if there is a glimmer of hope before dumping a buttload of time and money into the project.
I have two other businesses besides this one that keep me fed, and busy as hell.
If I can manage to find an avenue to a market, such as somehow getting into the LDS's (biggest exposure), and I see potential for very substantial growth then I will take the next step.
However this whole thing is way tougher than I thought.
Just staying small and on Scubaboard is not going to work.
That's why I figured if GUE accepted it as compliant that would at least help. But now I'm seeing that the following is pretty stuck in their ways and have very little flexibility. Maybe they just don't like the way it looks?
What I have to decide is whether or not developing the product to accept doubles and have an attachment point for an argon bottle is worth it.
I have a feeling they will probably still turn their noses up at it even if it can do everything they need it to do just based on Dogma.
I can already see that to convert the plate the way it needs to be will take away from the simplicity and streamlined design I already have for using singles. There are more single tank users out there than double tank users, I'll bet you 100 to 1.

I would love to have a wing made for it and sell it complete all set up.
But there's a lot of other stuff I need to do first.